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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing Thread 19

738 replies

ickky · 26/09/2022 17:24

Allison Bailey has tweeted her intention to appeal the Stonewall decision.

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1572133035335716865

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/allison-bailey-vs-stonewall-and-garden

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?
Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2
Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3
Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4
Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5
Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6
Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7
Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8
Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9
Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10
Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11
Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12
Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13
Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14
Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15
Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16
Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17
Thread 18 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4574654-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-18

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf
Supplementary Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf
Closing Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

The Reserved Judgement (forth one down)

www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/ms-a-bailey-v-stonewall-equality-ltd-and-others-2202172-slash-2020

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Snowypeaks · 15/05/2024 14:44

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 12:28

I've been down the rabbit hole of cadaver dog training now. There are some artificial products available but traditionally they are trained on real human blood, bone, hair, teeth and human tissue. While your friendly dentist or hairdresser may be able to help out with some of these, and apparently human bone is readily available on the internet, there are obvious issues with legally obtaining human tissue.

I hope they're all really small dogs, then. Wouldn't want to give them a taste for human blood...

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/05/2024 15:07

I can't remember from the first trial why the tribunal decided that KM didn't know that GCC was a diversity champion member. Was it just on his word?

Just checked, this is what the judgment says at para 199

'The important complaint is the one made by Kirrin Medcalf of Stonewall on 31 October. Kirrin Medcalf was present at the TON meeting on 23 October, to represent Stonewall. He knew Michelle Brewer was a member of TELI, but he had never met her, and she was not at the meeting. He had only joined Stonewall a few weeks before, and was unaware of Garden Court, in particular that it was a Stonewall Diversity Champion. Given the long list of Diversity Champion organisations, this is plausible.'

Sloejelly · 15/05/2024 15:20

BettyBooper · 15/05/2024 11:53

How long do Judges usually take to make a decision?

Depends. If there is a lot of evidence to go through they might need to ensure they have time in their diary between hearing other cases to go through it. I remember hearing a talk by one retired esteemed judge who said he generally made decisions quite quickly when it was fresh in his mind. But his colleague objected saying it made them look bad and the judgements ill-thought. So he made the judgements just as quickly but put them in a drawer for a month or two and everyone was much happier.

ValueAddedTaxonomy · 15/05/2024 15:23

I've been down the rabbit hole of cadaver dog training now.

If they are training them in rabbit holes they are doing it wrong.
I've pulled my dog out by the tail from a number of rabbit holes without a smidgen of human remains to show for it.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 15:29

I knew there was a joke in there somewhere but was too distracted to find it!

Zebracat · 15/05/2024 16:21

But in their complaint letter, they refer to the specifics of the trans inclusionary type stuff that named members of GCC are doing. It really is a nonsense to think they didn’t know they were dc.

redalex261 · 15/05/2024 16:27

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 11:32

So KM is planning to hire themself out to the police to search for missing dead people? Or just advertise the service on Facebook with a lovely pic of their dog?

How does KM propose to cope with the stress of actually finding 'human remains'? I should imagine it's a pretty traumatic experience for anyone, even the most emotionally sturdy.

Do the poor relatives know that the team tramping through the woods following the scent trail may also include KM's mum and an emotional support person?

The mind boggles.

Oh dear god! my thoughts crystallised exactly, thank you! The mental image conjured up of KM, Nettle and support troupe coming upon decomposing remains and mangling any evidence is darkly hilarious. Please, someone (Graham Linehan?) set to work on the sitcom.

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/05/2024 16:49

Zebracat · 15/05/2024 16:21

But in their complaint letter, they refer to the specifics of the trans inclusionary type stuff that named members of GCC are doing. It really is a nonsense to think they didn’t know they were dc.

Yup.

It says KM was 'unaware of Garden Court', yet in the spiteful letter just a few days later, KM is gushing about how Garden Court have 'always been allies to Stonewall' and how 'proud and grateful' they are for that...

SpinCityBlue · 15/05/2024 16:50

Zebracat · 15/05/2024 16:21

But in their complaint letter, they refer to the specifics of the trans inclusionary type stuff that named members of GCC are doing. It really is a nonsense to think they didn’t know they were dc.

I had a quick search of Allison's original witness statement, which I hope the new Judge (Bourne) is also reading. (I'm putting it in italics not bold, as too much bold hurts my eyes!)

(324) At the same time that Michelle Brewer was complaining about me on 16 October 2019 (as dealt with from paragraph (291) above), she was continuing to work closely with Stonewall. In the bundle are heavily redacted emails between Shaan Knan (of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group and the LGBT Consortium) and Michelle Brewer from 1 October 2019 onwards about an event which Garden Court were hosting for Stonewall and others on the evening of 23 October 2019. The event was discussed within Stonewall. Kirrin Medcalf, who would go on to write the Stonewall complaint about me to Chambers on 31 October 2019 attended this meeting (Bundle Pages 1848-9).

(325) The trans rights meeting Michelle Brewer had organised with Stonewall went ahead on 23 October, with Stonewall representatives present. It took place in the building at Garden Court Chambers. I did not know anything about it, or that it was happening. Michelle Brewer, who had set up the meeting (and who, as a Garden Court barrister, was effectively its host) was in fact in Scotland and had given her apologies. She did however ask Shaan Knan of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group to pass on a message to the attendees, asking them to make complaints about me to my Heads of Chambers. The communication in which she made this request has not been disclosed, though it may have been a verbal request. However, Shaan Knan did as Michelle Brewer requested. The minutes of the meeting record him saying (Bundle Page 3847): “Community encouraged to write to Garden Court Chambers Heads in the next couple fo [sic] days to express concern about Allison Bailey’s (barrister) transphobic comments on Twitter. Chambers having a meeting to decide on formal action against barrister Allison Bailey”.

(326) Two of those present in that meeting were Kirrin Medcalf, the Head of Trans inclusion at Stonewall, who wrote the Stonewall complaint against me, and Josh Bradlow, the Head of Policy at Stonewall, who was Mr Medcalf’s boss.

(327) Knan’s reference to the “meeting” to decide on formal action against me (which in the event took place on 28 October) is the first mention of it in the bundle. Neither Garden Court nor Stonewall have disclosed any document in these proceedings to explain how Shaan Knan knew such a meeting was to take place. It appears that he must have been told about it by Michelle Brewer, which in turn provides further evidence that she was in discussion with the Heads of Chambers and others about me and the prospect of taking "formal action” against me.

(328) After the meeting, Michelle Brewer contacted Shaan Knan who reported back (Bundle Page 2138). He wrote: “I did bring up briefly the issue with the terfy barrister and asked people to support and write to Head of GC. I hope to put something together tonight. We won't of course engage with her on social media”.

I'm reading this as: Stonewall representatives were asked by Garden Court Chambers to discriminate, and Stonewall as Stonewall willingly agreed and by doing so caused the detriment.

RimTimTagiTim · 15/05/2024 16:54

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/05/2024 16:49

Yup.

It says KM was 'unaware of Garden Court', yet in the spiteful letter just a few days later, KM is gushing about how Garden Court have 'always been allies to Stonewall' and how 'proud and grateful' they are for that...

So was "unaware" initially then looked into it while writing spiteful letter at which point definitely knew, beyond plausibility.

I'm still stuck on the dog finding human remains. Surely the first thing the dog does on finding something like that is try to eat it - after all according to most dogs it is better to have eaten something and thrown it up, than never to have eaten it at all - is the training getting them not to eat it? Because surely that sort of thing starts at home.

BettyBooper · 15/05/2024 16:56

Sloejelly · 15/05/2024 15:20

Depends. If there is a lot of evidence to go through they might need to ensure they have time in their diary between hearing other cases to go through it. I remember hearing a talk by one retired esteemed judge who said he generally made decisions quite quickly when it was fresh in his mind. But his colleague objected saying it made them look bad and the judgements ill-thought. So he made the judgements just as quickly but put them in a drawer for a month or two and everyone was much happier.

Ha! Thanks, that's interesting. I just read 'Unlawful Killings', written by an Old Bailey judge. Fascinating what goes on behind the scenes and how much needs to be considered.

Zebracat · 15/05/2024 17:01

@SpinCityBlue Thanks for doing that. Obviously, Ben Cooper is a God, so there will be reasons why he didn't rehash this, although he did give a little pointer. I think the judge was really familiar with the material, so we will have to see. If I was Stonewall, I’d be worried.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:04

Surely the first thing the dog does on finding something like that is try to eat it - after all according to most dogs it is better to have eaten something and thrown it up, than never to have eaten it at all - is the training getting them not to eat it? Because surely that sort of thing starts at home.

Perhaps the whole point is that the transowner encourages the dog to identify as a cat. Then it won't eat the remains, just play with them and leave them on the doormat for an easy find.

Motorina · 15/05/2024 17:05

I live very rurally and have scent hounds. I live in fear of one of my dogs emerging from the undergrowth with, I dunno, a hand or a foot or something. And having to choose between wrestling it off them or having to explain to the police where it went.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:13

How interesting, @Motorina. Is a scent hound the same as a bloodhound? And do they need training or do they naturally focus on human trails/remains?

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 15/05/2024 17:16

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 15/05/2024 13:49

Thanks - my family generally don’t want to see the deceased’s body again after the immediate death. Have never been to an open casket funeral either, it’s just not common at all in my circles. So I’ve never had to consider anything related to morticians etc other than the funeral director asking whether we’d like to provide clothes for the deceased.

Would you have any insight into which aspects particularly cause problems for “trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples” then? I get difficulties around estrangements and around who makes the decisions could make things tricky, but estrangements happen for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of families.

Some communities, including my own, have the body at home (or the funeral director) for visiting/laying in and there will be round the clock presence (sometimes known as a vigil) until the body is removed to the service. E.g., wakes now often mean a post-funeral event but it's not that unusual for it still to encompass the pre-funeral mourning and visiting.

Judaism has 'sitting shiva' that starts after the interment. Shiva embraces a time when individuals visit the family, giving them an opportunity to discuss their loss and accept the comfort of others. There may be difficulties there depending on whether families accepted a change of role. If a Jewish TW (say) died, would people visiting the family, who may have known the person at different life stages, talk about the person in their memories or the changed status (e.g., from father to mother).

I realise estrangements and people's standing as acknowledged partners with a role in someone's funeral can happen in any family. However, there may well be fundamental splits and disagreements about fundamentals.

It isn't difficult to envisage circumstances in which a partner of the deceased may not always have recognised legal rights to influence the presentation and the clothing choice for the deceased. Nor the booklet that is part of the funeral service, the selection of memories in it, the photographs etc. If there is somebody delivering a eulogy, there can be similar difficulties (where this is religious or humanist). Even the headstone that might end up with a different name, definition of roles (father/mother/sister/brother). Unless somebody opts for a specific, "male presenting NB" status, I don't know what sibling-role some NBs might select.

I am ignoring KM's outmoded use of intersex. I should think most people with VSD want to be left to themselves and not used as political shields or weapons.

None of this includes end-of-life care, of course. So much will depend on circumstances.

RimTimTagiTim · 15/05/2024 17:20

Motorina I've watched so many crime dramas and the body is nine times out of ten found by a dog walker. The dog walker is the one grey faced and retching in side shot being offered a tea. Presumably because they've just had to chase their dog around to remove the dismembered limb from them.

Motorina · 15/05/2024 17:38

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:13

How interesting, @Motorina. Is a scent hound the same as a bloodhound? And do they need training or do they naturally focus on human trails/remains?

The category of dogs that follows prey by their nose. Includes blood hounds. I have beagles who will notoriously eat anything including, I’m sure, bits of overripe people.

Somehow I can’t quite see KM having the emotional resilience for the role (nor would the dog KM was competing with last time we were in the same agility ring be particularly well suited). Mine, on the other hand? Crap at agility, superb at finding tasty dead things.

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 15/05/2024 17:53

What a photo!

x.com/bluskyeallison/status/1790748253069197323?s=46&t=VOq5vP7NkcwfyVGLEBNjEQ

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 15/05/2024 18:18

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 15/05/2024 17:53

Wow, Allison looks awesome - love the Doc Martens :-)

WFTCHTJ · 15/05/2024 18:31

I've got the giggles at the way Peter's standing. He does slightly look like he's been in the pub for lunch

WookeyHole · 15/05/2024 18:42

BC wears suspenders. Of course he does.

(The male variety aka braces. Which term is more common in the UK? Can't remember the last time I had reason to use either!)

GoodHeavens99 · 15/05/2024 18:43

WookeyHole · 15/05/2024 18:42

BC wears suspenders. Of course he does.

(The male variety aka braces. Which term is more common in the UK? Can't remember the last time I had reason to use either!)

Braces in England.

Boombatty · 15/05/2024 18:50

In England suspenders are the old fashioned straps to hold up tights before they became elasticated. A very different thing!

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