Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 16

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

To Come

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

On a final final note before sleep...

I know Some people say having a cat is nothing like having a kid but...

It's Saturday night my teenager has been out with his girlfriend and his best mate. My teen appeared about an hour ago whinging about snacks. I was busy on the computer doing, like all good parents, errrr important stuff 👀!

So I finally go to sort him out a snack like the devoted parent of a single I am to discover he's pissed off back out, his best mate is snoring in the back bedroom and his girlfriend is comatose right down the centre of My bed.

Of course it's to late to kick them out now so I have two unexpected houseguests.

Meanwhile my one is at the end of the road trying to pick a fight with the little shit who lives in the end house. I can hear them yelling at each other from here! They've hated each other since they four!

And don't even get me started on the hours I've spent in the medical centre getting him treated after a beating from the little thug. Of course I tried to talk to the parents, but he's was they're boys, they're doing what comes naturally, leave then be they'll sort it out!. It did go quiet for a while, I found out from another neighbour he'd been given a CASBO!

I could go and try and break it up but at his age he should really be starting to sort these things out himself especially as of late he's starting looking really embarrassed when mummy comes to rescue him!

Plus I've changed out of my day pyjamas into my night pyjamas. They're clean so they can not be exposed to the nightime darkness, especially as there is a really big cobweb with equally big spider in residence across the back gate.spider

Also he's got a key so at some point he'll stomp in, no doubt covered in blood and smelling of pee. If I'm really lucky I'll find a half eaten takeaway abandoned on the kitchen floor in the morning.

I've managed to move his girlfriend down to the end of the bed but she's now rolled over and is sleeping on my feet!

And they'll all be wanting me to make them breakfast in the morning!

Surely this it's exactly what having kids is like????

Except for the bit where I've just had to get up and open the bedroom window so his girlfriend can go and sit on the window ledge. Please tell me that bits not like having kids!

😂😂😂😂😂

Definitely 5-LOL-er!

Luckily you have a decent lawyer @IcakethereforeIam

Just imagine what could have happened if you'd consulted GCC! 😨

Doesn't bear thinking about.

EXACTLY like having kids, @Boiledbeetle

Even the window ledge bit.

I dunno, my kid calls for her best mate by climbing out of her window and going over the roof. I have to open the window for her AND the cats.

Yea - DS used to go out of the window at the top of the stairs and across the garage roof.

"More fun", apparently. I get dizzy in thick socks, so not for me.

@Boiledbeetle that is one amazing doctor! Fabulous. If only they all had the time for that.

😂😂😂 I got confused and thought you were talking about kids for a second. Apart from « surprisingly casual about the fight » (and speaking as a teacher, I’ve met parents who wouldn’t care either way, so it raised a flicker of a thought, but not an eyebrow). And then I got to the end and realised.

I have 3 boys and a cat, who DH and I frequently refer to as DS4. It’s reached the point where when I do that mum thing of mixing up their names the cat is included. Particularly DS3 and cat. Works both ways. And aside from pissing all over the weeds, they do act pretty much the same. And I keep telling the boys to stop doing that...

Apologies for the giant quotes, I need to go back to the old days of bold quoting.

Solid article from Sonia Sodha.

If policing people’s sexual preferences through the lens of race feels deeply unpleasant, when it comes to sexual orientation, it is wrong and dangerous. Yet we are in the extraordinary position where lesbians are now being told by some activists that it is bigoted for them to say they are not attracted to trans women who are biologically male. This is not a fringe belief: the chief executive of LGBT charity Stonewall recently said in relation to a BBC story about lesbians feeling pressured into dropping their boundaries: “Sexuality is personal… but if, when dating, you are writing off entire groups like people of colour or trans people, it’s worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attraction.” Last week, [Cathryn McGahey] a QC on the Bar Council’s ethics committee defended the concept of overcoming the “cotton ceiling” – the offensive idea that a lesbian’s lack of desire for trans women is rooted in bigotry rather than their same-sex attraction – and compared it to initiatives to promote racial integration in post-apartheid South Africa.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4558576-sonia-sodha-on-mb-and-the-cotton-ceiling?

GCC must have anticipated this level of interest and that some of their ideas would attract comment more than others. Presumably, they made some very nuanced calculation that means they anticipate that this will be a Twitterstorm in a teacup or that it's worth it to them.

that's hilarious - poor you

I name changed for comic effect. I'm on this thread under another name too. I keep forgetting and posting on other threads. I've posted on a thread about erectile dysfunction and now I feel like I've disrespected the good name of Martin Reuby by associating him with something so base.

I must remember to log in to the website and change it back.

Sonia Sodha is definitely on here. Got to be! God love her, she's amazing.

@Boiledbeetle I actually thought you were talking about teenagers as well for the longest while. I was nodding along thinking, yep, sounds just like DP and his sons ...

in the guardian as well. omg sunlight really is the best disinfectant isn't it...
There's still a long way to go back to sanity on this issue but it does feel like we're heading in a more sensible direction.

Joke
Q: What do you call a hetrosexual male who is so entitled he decides that from now on he is only going to sleep with homosexual women?

A: Whatever he/she/they ask you to of course, be kind!

in the guardian as well.

Observer, which does have a very different feel to it. However, there's no paywall so absolutely no excuse for the hard-up QCs of Garden Court Chambers to abstain from reading it.

It must be lively on the legal WhatsApp groups this weekend.

thanks for the correction EmbarrassingHadrosaurus, yes I've noticed the difference between the two before.

I've noticed the difference between the two before.

I do wonder how the American IT staff are coping. Most of the people busy signing letters about transphobia in the Guardian were people working on the website, which is 100% shared between the Guardian and Observer, to the point it's hard to tell the difference.

Are they not continually tantrumming about having to host transphobia?

Or are there larger commercial issues at play here? Can the Guardian not afford to upset the Observer, so they have to keep it under wraps?

Do they then have to take it out on the Guardian's female writers instead?

@Zeugma ...WHAT?

"Re the TransJustice Conference hosted by GCC in 2016, which Allison cites in her statement….MB was one of the speakers. So was Jay Stewart of Gendered Intelligence. It was reported in the publication MB cited in the tribunal, Gay Star News, who said MB:

detailed a Court of Appeal Case when judges regarded non-disclosure of gender history as lying. The Crown Prosecution Service in England and Wales has said it will not automatically prosecute a trans person where sex by deception is alleged. They will treat cases on their ‘merits’, leaving the option to prosecute open.
The lawyers concluded the law is unclear and could be used against trans people – and that they should know the risk.

GSN also quoted another of the speakers, Grietje Baars, as saying ‘judges have twisted the law to fit personal prejudice. There is much contradiction in their rulings’.

Which is one to ponder, looking back on this week’s events."

@Boiledbeetle I know Some people say having a cat is nothing like having a kid but...

My cat isn't even a teenager. He's a toddler. I once asked the vet & as a young mum she confirmed it.

Sometimes he doesn't want to go to sleep even though he's tired, I'm not sure why. So he refuses to go to bed & gets more & more fractious because he's over-tired.

He often needs me to put him to bed: he'll get me to go upstairs with him or call me from upstairs, & I have to go up & smooth the bedcover just for him, put him on it & sit & stroke him for a bit while he settles down & gets comfy. Then he tells me I can bugger off, & I go downstairs & have 3-5 hours of blissful silence until it starts all over again.

He's also very loving when the time is right but knows his own mind, & if he makes up his mind to do something nothing on this earth will stop him doing it.

aside from pissing all over the weeds, they do act pretty much the same. And I keep telling the boys to stop doing that...

😂😂😂

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria Yup. I did a bit of Googling when people were asking about Gendered Intelligence yesterday and that’s what popped up.

IANAL but my jaw dropped all over again reading that.

This is the article from GSN. The speakers are listed on the GCC website (still findable) and also included our friends from last week, Stephanie Harrison and Tom Wainwright, as well as Alex Sharpe, who didn’t appear before the tribunal.

Can we just take a moment to share my pain:

I. Have. No. Biscuits.

Not one. Not even a bourbon.

Where did I go wrong in life?

I've just realised Boiledbeetle was talking about a cat not a human (I'm not very bright)

Also, why is Amaretto made of almonds but Amaretti biscuits aren't? I confuzzed.

I've had a twitter argument on the topic of gender non-conformity.

Someone insisted that there are gender non-conforming trans ppl. I asked which gender they didn't conform too. Got a message back to the effect that there are many "TW" who dress and act like men (🤔) and "TM" who dress and act like women.

So it seems that there are men who feel like they are women who feel like men, and women who feel like men who feel like women . . . . . . . . 😶

When I see your name I read it to the tune of the Horrible Histories song about William Wallace, specifically its refrain ‘William Wallace Scottish rebel’.