Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 4

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A
Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.
You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, barrister for SW
RW = Robin White assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Witness Statement of Allison Bailey: allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf

Kirrin Medcalf's complaint to GCC: allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/PH-Bundle-pp-331-2-Stonewall-Complaint.pdf

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3?

Thank you Jules

Kirrin is definitely a fella.

I had another look at the picture of him with his dog and his whole face gives it away. Hair line, jaw line, etc.

Yes indeed. I could arrange a better set up in my front room.

I find it all desperately sad anyway. KM’s sex doesn’t change that for me. I have a suspicion that the administration of cross-sex hormones will turn out to be a neurological disaster for many people.

But ultimately we are responsible for our actions unless we have entirely taken leave of our senses. KM is an adult now and believes themselves capable of performing a role in which KM is responsible for making interventions like he did in the case of AB. And that is dangerous.

a hole lot of fun! This was a really unnecessary thing to say Helleofabore. I'm now going to have the "fun house" theme tune stuck in my head all day. 😡

They've agreed not to publish the witness list or timetable to avoid any intimidation or threats to witnesses before they appear. This was based on the judge seeing the terfisaslur stuff and being alarmed.

Given that the judge has needed to remind people not to use insulting or (possibly) intimidating screen names I would say the judge was quite right in making this decision.

‘I had another look at the picture of him with his dog and his whole face gives it away. Hair line, jaw line, etc.’

Those things are alterable.

No wonder the mammy looked knackered.

Except plenty of us have seen photographic evidence and there's a document written by them on the internet that says their birth certificate says female.

This is playing into the 'you can't tell' narrative. Testosterone causes more changes to a female body than oestrogen causes to male bodies.

Testosterone effects females quite quickly.

Some detransitioners have mentioned deepened peaks and baldness after a few years on testosterone.

There is a big difference between the shot of KM laying down with the dog with short hair and others.

Soz FacebookPhotos 😎

‘there's a document written by them on the internet that says their birth certificate says female.’

But in fairness they do often say that and mean a post-GRC birth certificate.

It’s possible KM had both MTF treatment and then further ‘nullifying’ treatment when he/she transitioned to NB.

I haven’t seen any images and won’t be looking for any as I don’t care that much. KM is entitled to their (incorrect) beliefs. I draw the line at people being harassed out of their jobs for knowing the truth.

Well apparently their university 'forced' them to live in female student accommodation because they couldn't get the paperwork that reflected how they felt about their sex. I'm not sure universities were so 'progressive' as to force MTF people into female accommodation against their will a few years ago.

This is really derailing the thread. I bet KM is loving this - a load of women debating their sex on the internet when they don't identify as either.

KM's journey is very clearly laid out upthread and here. KM is NB neutrois and has some interesting observations about the administrative difficulties that accompany that identity.

eachother.org.uk/it-is-the-right-for-all-people-to-live-their-life-as-themselves/

I don’t care if KM is loving it or not. But happy not to discuss it. Made my point.

I am really uncomfortable with all the discussions and speculations about KMs sex and gender. I am GC, but I also believe people have a right to privacy and to not be outed, that everyone has a right to be treated with dignity and respect.

Do we know what AB's to be examined about today?

I'm hoping for 20-30mins during a break and am trying to guess what I need to read.

‘I also believe people have a right to privacy and to not be outed, that everyone has a right to be treated with dignity and respect.’

I won’t accept that saying you perceive someone as a male or a female is ‘outing’. Sex doesn’t need to be a secret and I am not playing along with that nonsense. It gives away the store.

Hochhauser is continuing with cross examination. He'd finished going through a timeline of work and her diary. Not sure what he'll move on to next.

I'm also unhappy with that discussion.

He hasn’t cross-examined her on the LGBA or on her tweets yet, I don’t think.

My concern with Kirrin is that they're full of shit.

This is an important thread and there will be many who would like it gone for that reason. Making it personal is not going to help.

I agree. Drop the stuff from yesterday which doesn't tackle the evidence. It's a new day of new evidence.

Agreed. We don't have to like or agree with the constraints that we're operating under, but they are there all the same.