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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James O’Brien

109 replies

EweSurname · 06/07/2020 16:59

He’s said something more than a little bit TERFY but has yet to be invited to suck lady dicks or die in a fire (as far as I can see).

mobile.twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1279816451453521924

James O’Brien
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Xiaoxiong · 06/07/2020 22:19

I think it always gets derailed by toilets because that's the single sex space that you might visit the most frequently, but you actually are in it for the least amount of time. You also generally have full agency to leave anytime you like or feel uncomfortable so it feels safe.

Prisons, rape crisis shelters, hospital wards feel distant and unreal to the average person - oh most people will never experience that so it's not worth making policy for such extreme circumstances. But in fact, when you're there, you're almost certainly in a very vulnerable position, for a long time, and can't freely leave if there is an uncomfortable situation. That's exactly the kind of situation where a strict policy is needed to keep service users, patients and inmates safe.

I would also argue more adult women than men have been on a hospital ward overnight at some point, I was trying to describe to DH the vulnerability I would have felt having men on the ward at night after both my births and realised he has never been admitted to hospital in his life. Out of curiosity I asked a lot of friends and almost none of our male friends had ever stayed overnight in hospital (we are all mid-30s) whereas almost all the women had, and not just when pregnant or having children.

Xiaoxiong · 06/07/2020 22:24

The Wahaca solution is a row of all enclosed cubicles, each with sink inside that people of any sex can use one at a time. Which I 100% support, for women and transpeople's safety.

It doesn't help with a transperson's affirmation though, since each cubicle is unisex and often I feel like that affirmation and passing what this whole rigamarole is about. And when I see trans allies failing to argue for, or actively arguing against third spaces it's hard not to wonder why, if "we just want to pee", a third space or an enclosed unisex cubicle is unacceptable.

Decidendi · 06/07/2020 22:27

I've just arrived at mumsnet via Twitter so never get to see little Owen's misogyny, he blocked me years ago for saying that I was sick of right on men like him talking over and for working class women like me because he hasn't a clue. I see he still hasn't a clue about women, working class or not. What a take womens toilets are too expensive. Last weekend their was a cllr expressing how excited he was about having standing urinals around Soho....they've had to close the toilets because there were too many complaints about men having sex in them. Now that's what I'd call expensive but I guess if it's for the benefit of men it'll be a price worth paying for Owen and chums.

Collidascope · 06/07/2020 22:28

I feel like alongside sex education classes (with photos of sti-ridden genitals) and "don't do drugs" classes (with photos of collapsed noses), schools should also have classes on the dangers of spending too much time on social media, and the photos should just be screenshots of Owen Jones and his hourly spats and sermons on Twitter. 'See, this is what happens when you spend 8 hours a day on Twitter, kids. You'll completely lose your sense of humour, find yourself starting a fight with your own shadow, and the only people willing to be mates with you will be the likes of Ash Sarkar. Just say no.'

FantaOra · 06/07/2020 22:37

Haha Cillidascope, we should recommend safe spaces for humorless D&I paranoia victims where adults can pop in and suggest they have a look at a budget spreadsheet, with copious tissues for the stress of having to budget their own life.

PotholeParadise · 06/07/2020 22:38

Indeed. If you'd asked me in 2001 what I thought the future of toilets was in 2020, in regards to trans* people, I would have said the addition of separate unisex toilets to existing facilities. In fact, I'm sure I did say.

I don't think it would be that expensive for new buildings to always plan for women's toilets, men's toilets and an additional unisex, and it would be very convenient for fathers taking daughters to the toilet.

FantaOra · 06/07/2020 22:40

I think the killer is though that the third set of toilets is largely for fapping in.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 22:41

I don't think it would be that expensive for new buildings to always plan for women's toilets, men's toilets and an additional unisex, and it would be very convenient for fathers taking daughters to the toilet.

No. And if it was the law, they'd simply have to find the money from somewhere.

ChattyLion · 06/07/2020 22:49

I don’t really know who this guy is, but from his tweet in the OP, he’s been asked what a woman is and his reply starts off that he’s ‘incredibly confused’.Hmm
Yes OK it’s good he believes in Keep Your Penis out of the Ladies. But that should be the basic assumption for any man.
No he isn’t bloody confused about what a woman is though. Literally nobody is confused. Some people might be too scared, intimidated, self-interested or careerist to say so openly, but everyone, including very young children and animals, knows what a man or woman is, for fucks’ sake.

Do these men really expect women to sympathetically nod along and say ‘mmm yes how confusing and difficult for you’ whilst it’s women are being silenced, threatened professionally, punched to the ground (with no irony whatsoever) at Speakers’ Corner (Maria Maclachlan), given rape or death threats (most GC women on Twitter), their kids being wished a horrible death (Posie Parker) and whatever other creepy as fuck rubbish these men’s sexual entitlement activists can come up with?

Honourable exception that proves this rule being Glinner

ChattyLion · 06/07/2020 23:38

Also the Wahaca thing is not a solution for many women. Many of us need access to a large communal areas with sinks and mirrors which is female only too, for millions of reasons which don’t work in small self contained cubicles including dealing with our small children and their pushchairs.
Also because men leave their doors open and leave piss on seats in mixed sex toilets.

So actually the removal of the conventional female single-sex communal toilets is a major female privacy, safety and dignity issue. Also, and unsurprisingly, this causes a lot of issues for girls and boys in schools that have changed toilets to be mixed sex.

Great speech on this issue here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

This thread has reasons why women need women’s toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

We have had a bajillion threads about the female experience of using gender neutral/mixed/unisex toilets. These include being scared: of sexual assault or of being filmed as wank material, listened to on the toilet, of feeling embarrassed at being close to men when toileting, being flashed at because men won’t close their cubicle doors, or the disgusting monotony of having to clear up strange men’s piss on the floor and seat before women can use the cubicle:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3577718-Eddy-Izzards-says-women-should-be-forced-to-share-bathrooms-with-men?pg=1&order=

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3572891-Everyman-Cinemas-and-toilets-for-everyone-a-womans-review-AIBU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3569596-Workplace-toilets-ACAS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559632-Uniex-toilets-who-likes-them

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3570988-Law-on-unisex-loos-in-places-of-entertainment

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3571591-Asked-to-do-work-survey-on-transgender-in-workplace-and-includes-gender-neutral-toilets-Help-me-respond-in-600-words

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3555187-NZ-Ambassador-on-trial-for-planting-hidden-camera-in-unisex-toilets-of-Washington-DC-embassy

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3554058-Daily-Mail-Dominic-Lawson-Article-on-Gender-Neutral-Toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3553562-A-Day-Using-Restaurant-Toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3550795-Words-matter-unisex-toilets-are-mixed-sex

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3546428--Gender-neutral-toilets-first-experience

This thread has tips for anyone wanting to improve design in women’s toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3548768-Look-at-the-design-of-the-toilet-Some-actually-asked-a-woman

This thread links to a key legal resource:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3577063-The-Louise-Whitfield-legal-document-on-right-to-same-sex-facilities

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3575919-Toilets-at-childs-school

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3506533-Mixed-sex-toilets-in-schools-childrens-actual-views

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3572220-The-law-on-mixed-sex-toilets-in-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3567313-UK-school-toilets-this-never-happens

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3561963-US-Female-student-expelled-for-kneeing-boy-in-the-groin-while-in-girls-bathroom?pg=2&order=

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3557951-Walkout-at-US-highschool-on-transgender-use-of-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3557203-New-Debate-Kit-Unisex-Toilets-downloadable-from-the-RI-for-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3581606-Resource-thread-with-concrete-examples-of-men-being-grim-in-unisex-toilets

Thread that talks about men wanking and pissing in their work toilets and posting those pissing and wanking videos online. Yet another reason for preserving female-only toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605120-Munroe-Childline-s-first-LGBT-campaigner

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3611447-Potential-Systemic-Safeguarding-failures-in-NSPCC-Childline-illustrated-by-appointment-ending-of-relationship-with-Munroe-Bergdorf-Thread-2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3611483-Single-Sex-Mixed-Sex-and-Gimp-Sex-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3708072-Join-the-mixed-sex-loo-resistance-movement?pg=1&order=

This thread ^ has ideas for ways to practically act/comment against non-single-sex toilet provision

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3709300-Evidence-that-women-generally-prefer-single-sex-lavatories

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3749831-Share-your-experiences-of-gender-neutral-toilets?pg=1&order=

Hopefully James O’Brien or management at Wahaca will pop over and read some of these Smile

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 23:55

I don’t really know who this guy is, but from his tweet in the OP, he’s been asked what a woman is and his reply starts off that he’s ‘incredibly confused’.

He's got a fair amount of previous on this issue.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 23:56

So actually the removal of the conventional female single-sex communal toilets is a major female privacy, safety and dignity issue.

YY.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2020 23:57

Thank you Chatty for providing all those links.

Xanthangum · 07/07/2020 00:23

Applause for @Chattylion... superb resource list.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 07/07/2020 02:15

WTF is Owen even talking about?

No one would confuse a butch lesbian for a transwoman. They have the least interchangeable wardrobes, for starters.

Butches occasionally get stopped because people think they are men (or more often boys!) but usually only for a split second and usually because they were seen from behind.
I’ve never known a butch woman be anything more than momentarily annoyed (more often momentarily amused).

Methinks the ‘Butch lesbians’ reporting to Owen are not of the old fashioned adult-human-female variety (might be one or two in the sold-my-soul-to-Stonewall-Diva category, I suppose).

Kokeshi123 · 07/07/2020 02:22

This came from James O'Brian literally HOURS after he posted about how "cancel culture" isn't real and is just a big excuse made up by bigots. 2020 is actually surreal at times.

twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1279716344611713025

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 07/07/2020 02:31

James O’Brian needs to listen to James Lindsay:

twitter.com/ConceptualJames

Icantreachthepretzels · 07/07/2020 03:08

So James O'B is asked what a woman is and he claims he is 'confused and acutely conscious of the pain caused by holding any strong public opinion on the issue.'

I mean ... are there any other basic nouns he can't define?

What's a chair James?
'all I can say is I am deeply confused and acutely conscious of the pain caused by holding any strong public opinion on the issue'.

Have a word with yourself, James.

Helmetbymidnight · 07/07/2020 07:46

oj is asking if james wants to set up genital inspection units and saying that butch lesbians are being thrown out the loos.

sigh.

Deliriumoftheendless · 07/07/2020 08:12

I’m starting to think it’s just good old fashioned lesbophobia that justifies people (men) saying lesbians look like men.

I’ve know a fair few butch lesbians (disclaimer- I am hetero so am very willing to listen to what actual lesbians say about this) and whilst they weren’t feminine they were obviously NOT men.

It’s like female bodybuilders- the majority don’t look like men but it’s thrown at them all the time.

Helmetbymidnight · 07/07/2020 08:18

i thinks its just misogyny- they hate women saying no- esp to transwomen.
how dare they?
they keep talking about genitals- youre obsessed with genitals- with the odd infertile woman thrown in there coz theyre like tw.

i wonder if james can see that its mostly men desperately redifining women to suit themselves.

chilling19 · 07/07/2020 08:21

Oh dear James, you have finally met your match. Women are saying NO.

FantaOra · 07/07/2020 08:36

OJ and JOB can inspect genitals in the gents to their hearts content for all I care.

Women's toilets are for females.
.

Xanthangum · 07/07/2020 08:56

I wonder if JOB will open it up this morning. I seem to remember him mentioning (before lockdown and all the JKR stuff) that he had come up with a solution to the trans rights/womens rights problem (gee thank you so muchHmm) and was going to discuss it on air soon, but never did.

I will be standing by the viper phone if so....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/07/2020 09:00

He'll either do a full reverse ferret and make a grovelling apology while repeating The Glorious Mantra, or he won't mention it again, I think.