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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Day Using Restaurant Toilets

32 replies

AppleJane · 07/04/2019 16:48

Hello everyone. I’ve only recently discovered Mumsnet - and that it’s not just for people with small children!

I stumbled across this section of the forum simply by browsing the talk index. What an eye opener that has been.

My life philosophy is ‘do what makes you happy as long as no-one else gets hurt’.

In a very short space of time I have gone from wondering what all the fuss is about to being deeply concerned after reading some of the threads on here. Thank you for your excellent and informative posts!

Yesterday I went out with friends for a light lunch, a day of activities and then for a proper evening meal.

The café we went to for our lunch was in a busy city shopping area and they were obviously experiencing problems with people popping in to use the loo and not staying to eat.

It was an independent place, staff were pleasant and there was a nice atmosphere.

I went to use the toilet and there were 3 doors:

The first door read ‘urinal and gender neutral cubicles’

The second one said ‘baby changing facilities’

The third door said ‘gender neutral cubicles’

All of the doors had an additional sign saying please ask staff for key – customer use only. I saw a number of customers pushing at the locked doors - the sign wasn’t obvious.

A woman was in the process of locking the door reading ‘gender neutral cubicles’ and presuming I would want to use the toilets that didn’t also contain a urinal, she offered to give me the key if I promised to hand it in afterwards. The key had a huge fob that wouldn’t fit in my pocket.

I unlocked the door and inside was a little area with two sinks and a hand dryer and two cubicles. The cubicles were not floor to ceiling – just the standard doors with gaps above and below.

I didn’t think to lock the ‘outer’ door, I just entered one of the cubicles. I’d previously used a gender neutral toilet and there was urine all over the floor so I was happy to find this loo clean.

I heard someone else enter the other cubicle. Now I had a dilemma because I couldn’t lock the outer door while someone was in there and waiting for them was going to look a little weird so I stalled inside my cubicle until I heard them exit theirs.

As I came out I saw a man’s back going out of the main door. I recognised him as a customer sitting with another man and two women at a table near to ours.

I returned to my table and explained to my friends that I had the ‘key’ if they needed the loo. When they had finished, I locked the outer door marked ‘gender neutral cubicles’ and returned the key to the counter.

A member of staff took it from me and placed it on top of another key. I couldn’t see any difference between the two fobs so it’s possible there were 3 keys that could open (and lock) all 3 doors.

In the evening we went to a chain restaurant and toilets were labelled ‘women’ and ‘men’. A woman was using a toilet with the door wide open and watching her two toddlers, both naked from the waist down, who were giggling and ignoring her pleas to stop running up and down the sink area!

I personally think the café facilities are unsafe for everyone using them because of the key situation and the cubicles with gaps. It also felt to me that men now had extra cubicles to use as I wouldn’t have chosen to enter the ‘urinals and gender neutral cubicles’ area.

The experience in the restaurant reminded me how complacent some people still are and how we all have a different concept of ‘safe space’.

OP posts:
sackrifice · 07/04/2019 16:59

You need to write all that down and put a complaint in to them. if nobody complains they will assume everyone is ok with it.

JamB4cream · 07/04/2019 17:35

The cafe certainly sounds a very strange set up, it would seem possible that you could wander in while someone else had unlocked the door to find yourself locked in as they excited and locked and returned the key.
Also seems possible if all three keys are the same as you assumed that a man following you in could have collected a key also and locked the door behind him with both of you trapped in there together (far-fetched? But possible)

LittleChristmasMouse · 07/04/2019 17:40

As you've said yourself though you saw people pushing the locked doors because they didn't see the sign telling them to get a key - the man probably pushed all of the doors and found yours open.

That doesn't mean men get extra toilets really does it?

And what was going on with the woman using the toilet with the door open and 2 half naked toddlers?

Knicknackpaddyflak · 07/04/2019 17:44

Gender neutral and gender neutral with urinals - yes that does mean men get extra toilets.

No it doesn't sound well thought out or safe in any way.

AppleJane · 07/04/2019 18:17

I don't mind writing a complaint but as I'm not yet up to speed with all this stuff what do you think I should complain about specifically? Just the key issue or the cubicles themselves? I don't want to harm the cause by wording it incorrectly if that makes sense! It would be nice for them to gently get the point.

It did occur to me later that you could get locked in unintentionally or otherwise and as someone who is naturally hypervigilant I was annoyed at myself for focusing on 'keeping my promise to return the key' rather than my safety. Lots of women leave their bags (and phones) with others in restaurants when going to the loo - I always take mine.

I believe the man did just find the door unlocked and probably was as confused as I was! But someone more familiar with the set up could take advantage of it.

I don't know if the urinals were inside one of the cubicles or in the corner with additional cubicles but I think most women wouldn't bother to find out, hence extra loos for men!

It's not the first time I've seen women using a loo and leaving the door open to watch children who can't fit inside the cubicle. It's not something I've ever done but it does happen.

OP posts:
Barracker · 07/04/2019 19:14

Most women will avoid toilets with urinals, even ones with locked doors where you might not meet with a urinating man, because men's loos are mostly disgusting in comparison to women's.

So women are limited to one loo, and men get their pick of either.

Men's options expand, women's contract even further. Not only do they lose the more hygienic loos, but those are now shared with men and demand increases as hygiene decreases.

These ridiculous pandering efforts benefit men and men alone.

The only people that this doesn't occur to are men as a rule.

DryHeave · 07/04/2019 19:27

I hadn’t considered toileting with small children in the unisex scenario.

ZebrasAreBras · 07/04/2019 21:57

I have, when shopping alone with a baby in a pram, gone to the very end cubicle, and left the door open, with the pram in the doorway so I can still see it.

I would not be happy to do that in a gender neural space.

We know why places are doing this - it's to placate the trans lobbyists.

And we know 'gender neutral' makes women less safe.

terfsandwich · 07/04/2019 22:23

I complained about this almost exact set up at a microbrewery. Except "gender neutral with urinals" was labelled "men". So men could enter all three and had their own space.
They replied to me that this met their customers' needs. I complained on fb (real name) so I couldn't take it further in case they were gender McCarthyists.

LinkXX · 07/04/2019 22:26

It seems like they want women and girls to just stay home all the time. I'm going to save a lot of money if that's the case! Seriously though, this is not acceptable and we all need to try and do something to stop this nonsense. I don't know what, just.. something.Even those toilets all enclosed on in a line make me uneasy.. say it was a quiet corridor? Too easy to get pushed in one of those, locked in and assaulted.. and no one would hear you crying for help.

LassOfFyvie · 07/04/2019 22:28

It's not the first time I've seen women using a loo and leaving the door open to watch children who can't fit inside the cubicle. It's not something I've ever done but it does happen

How huge were these toddlers or children who can't fit in? Given it used to be a thing when I was a teenager for teenage girls and young women to go into a cubicle togerher I'm struggling to see why 2 toddlers would not fit in.

littlbrowndog · 07/04/2019 22:31

Well lass it’s hard to get a buggie and 2 other kids in a cubicle
Where we meant to squeeze them in

LassOfFyvie · 07/04/2019 22:36

There was no mention of a buggy. There is plenty of room in a cubicle for 2 small children.

littlbrowndog · 07/04/2019 22:39

There is not lass them cubicles are tiny. Unless you put one of the toddlers on top of the bin

Gingerkittykat · 07/04/2019 22:41

In the evening we went to a chain restaurant and toilets were labelled ‘women’ and ‘men’. A woman was using a toilet with the door wide open and watching her two toddlers, both naked from the waist down, who were giggling and ignoring her pleas to stop running up and down the sink area!

Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of gender neutral toilets but did this really happen.

In all of my 40 years or so of using women's toilets I have never seen any woman using the toilet with the door open or semi naked toddlers running around. I think using a ridiculous scenario like that makes the argument for sex segregated toilets seem ridiculous.

I wonder if us women should all start using the urinal and cubicle toilets in these scenarios. I'm sure the men don't want women watching them piss so maybe they would start complaining and be taken more seriously.

littlbrowndog · 07/04/2019 22:41

Anyway what are you actually saying. Anyone with more than 2 very small kid# should not use public loos

It is a problem lass

HawkeyeInConfusion · 07/04/2019 22:42

Well Lass it could be that the toddlers were in the cubicle with their mum. Only for them to open the door and escape whilst she was mid flow.

These things do happen.

ZebrasAreBras · 07/04/2019 22:50

There was no mention of a buggy. There is plenty of room in a cubicle for 2 small children.

I mentioned the buggy (well, the word I used was pram).

It was my own experience of using a loo. When I had a pram with me. And no, the pram would not fit in the cubicle. And no, I would not leave it outside. And no, I would not feel at all comfortable doing this if it was gender neutral.

StateofIndependance · 07/04/2019 22:57

Gender neutral toilet = floor and seat covered in piss. Had to wipe urine off the entire seat of a trendy burger bar loo before my toddler could go. Then there was no soap to wash hands. Absolutely no way I will ever eat there again.

ZebrasAreBras · 07/04/2019 23:01

Yup.

And if anyone tells you that men's toilet don't stink, they're lying. Men's toilets smell different - and IMO worse - than women's.

Gender neutral is a terrible idea - that when questioned non-leadingly - most people reject.

Voice0fReason · 07/04/2019 23:26

I've used the end cubicle with the door slightly open so I could keep an eye on my pushchair. I've seen other women do the same. It's not possible in all public toilets but the ones I used to use in my local town it worked perfectly.
I hate mixed sex toilets - men piss everywhere.

Sarahjconnor · 08/04/2019 10:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lamaha · 08/04/2019 10:08

It's like Christmas and Birthday and New Year's all rolled into one today, media wise.
After the brilliant Times articles comes this one, in the Daily Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6897005/DOMINIC-LAWSON-inconvenient-truth-unisex-loos-women-loathe-them.html?fbclid=IwAR14c8zoPeWZObek-le1VACvrPL-pG2c7N8KdL-Q4UIGjpuhQ40VJa8PPj4

ZebrasAreBras · 08/04/2019 10:15

That article is full of such common sense - and also, full of stuff that I feel we are barely able to even say anymore.

A woman saying "I want women's only toilets for my own comfort, safety and privacy" seems to catapult her into the highest levels of Nazism, according to some transactivists.

It really is ludicrous.

Presumably the gender neutral toilets at the Museum mentioned in the Mail article comes under the City of London? Sod off Edward Lord - with your dodgy survey that you won't publish the results of - trying to impose this shit on women.

helzapoppin2 · 08/04/2019 11:43

Zebras, you are absolutely right. That article is full of common sense. It’s ridiculous to make the majority feel uncomfortable for the sake of the minority. Male, female and unisex loos are the way ahead, if space permits, and bless Dominic Lawson for writing it.