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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Clarification on Women only spaces

377 replies

Magenta82 · 12/04/2019 13:18

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

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JackyHolyoake · 14/04/2019 18:05

See also Schedule 3, section 28 [Gender reassignment]

28 (1) A person does not contravene section 29 [Provision of services], so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

This means that there is no discrimination in relation to gender reassignment in those three situations.

barelove · 14/04/2019 18:05

Shab is ridiculously a little confused and a few of us stopped bothering engaging with him/her? a while ago.

Some cracking responses by our wonderful Women posters though Grin

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/04/2019 18:06

Shaboopy - do you believe humans can change sex?

if you don't then this conversation is over, no?

because a male is a male is a male, no matter what they're wearing, what make up they have on, what cosmetic surgery they've had and what drugs they're taken. none of it matters.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/04/2019 18:08

Albert also said E=MC2 - but I could never remember which way 'it' was travelling... m2c maybe? Maybe it doesn't matter as it is all relative anyway Grin

Shaboopy · 14/04/2019 18:08

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

The male perspective is the same, from a young age females start to tell them how to be male! We knew nothing about real life! let alone had a period, but we got our way!

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/04/2019 18:11

thanks for the quotes from the EA Jacky most educational.

turns out single sex toilets are completely within the law. who;d have thought it?

animaginativeusername · 14/04/2019 18:12

@Shaboopy ConfusedConfusedConfused

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 14/04/2019 18:13

This thread is class!

I have no idea what Shaboopy is on about Grin

animaginativeusername · 14/04/2019 18:13

@BernardBlacksWineIcelolly that makes sense

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/04/2019 18:13

I imagine women throughout the country pulling that confused face after the last post.

i was quite up for a ruck discussion, (weekend at the in-laws) but I genuinely don't know what to do with that

JackyHolyoake · 14/04/2019 18:14

because a male is a male is a male, no matter what they're wearing, what make up they have on, what cosmetic surgery they've had and what drugs they're taken. none of it matters.

And this is what UK law says too.

MenuPlant · 14/04/2019 18:15

"why now are we seeking to re categorise and sub categorise people based on having or not having a period?"

Yep this is how it's done.

I always sent my DDs into the gents before they started their periods. Now they have started they can come to the ladies with me

My 85yo mum goes in the gents as well obv

Shaboopy · 14/04/2019 18:16

JackyHolyoake

defined by "sex" not innate sex.

RedDogsBeg · 14/04/2019 18:16

from a young age females start to tell them how to be male! Oh this is just comedy gold and leaves one in no doubt whatsoever about the intentions of this poster.

Shaboopy · 14/04/2019 18:17

Anecdote through and through

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/04/2019 18:17

defined by "sex" not innate sex

what do you mean?

that started off in capitals but I decided shouting is not what laydees do

Shaboopy · 14/04/2019 18:18

RedDogsBeg

what said that ?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/04/2019 18:19

do I tell my DS's how to be male? if our family motto were the most uttered words in the house, it would be 'do you need to go to the toilet? well leave yourself alone then'. does that count?

MenuPlant · 14/04/2019 18:19

and catching up. another post referencing periods.

bit of a theme energing

JackyHolyoake · 14/04/2019 18:21

defined by "sex" not innate sex.

UK law defines sex as a combination of chromosomes, gonads and genitals. Sex is innate: inborn; natural.

Sex cannot be changed; sex is a material biological reality.

MenuPlant · 14/04/2019 18:21

we also have toilets here not restrooms just fyi

barelove · 14/04/2019 18:22

what indeed! Grin

Shaboopy · 14/04/2019 18:25

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

legal vs anecdotal sex. ffs we birth both sexes, campaign on the fact its thrust on us, and still my husband has to battle with store and station managers for access to a disabled loo to take my daughter for a piss!

once he was given a towel to use on the piss soaked floor of an Asda!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/04/2019 18:29

Anecdotal sex? Is that like Jilly Cooper?

Sex being thrust upon us might be the point!

Not entirely sure the last half of that post is in any way true!

JackyHolyoake · 14/04/2019 18:29

legal vs anecdotal sex

Pissing myself laughing here .... "anecdotal" sex .... ha ha ha ha ha!