Clarification on Women only spaces

[Magenta82]

Hiya, I've always identified as a feminist, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and before joining had read about trans rights and had got the impression that any challenges were transphobic and bigoted.

I can see now that, as with most things, the issues are far more nuanced than Twitter would lead us to believe. I can see issues with women's rights, self identification, shutting down debate, etc and am starting to understand other points of view.

I guess for me the complications arise when things get personal. I have some trans friends, both MTF and FTM, who have fully transitioned (as adults over 30), had all the surgery, got certificates the whole thing. What would the general consensus be on access to single sex spaces for them?

My friend may not have grown up as a girl/woman, but has made every effort to become one because she has always felt this way, she may not have faced the same challenges as me growing up, but she has faced other challenges and discrimination. I feel like she absolutely belongs in women only spaces and would hate to think that other people see her as a threat.

I am not talking about self identifying, gender queer, non binary, cross dressing, etc, people.

You're a point where I think loads of women have been. Trying to be nice to people, especially people you know, whilst respecting women's boundaries.

Unfortunately, a little more thought makes you realise, there is no compromise to be had. Even if, ideologically, you wish there was one.

Having gender dysphoria, going through the process and getting a certificate, does not preclude the person from being a sex offender. They are still just as statistically likely to be a sex offender as any other man.

Furthermore, it doesn't change the way women, any woman, views them. Whether they have suffered sexual abuse or their religion precludes it, etc.

And lastly, the system is a piece of piss to exploit. And many men have done so.

Historically men with gender dysphoria were the only men who were allowed hormones. And so the men with a fetish had to find a way of getting round that. And they did. Because there is no observable, verifiable method of diagnosis. It all depends upon what the person says.

And as such, there can be no gate keeping of the kind you describe.

You're not alone in wanting a compromise.

Personally - I would accept a male who has gone through sex change operations in a ladies loo. But - here's the BUT - I don't speak for womankind. Would I want a male/ex-male carrying out a smear or mammogram? I don't think I would and here's why - both are embarrassing and a bit sore, so I prefer someone who has gone through this particular procedure to carry it out (and yes I do realise that if I had brain surgery the surgeon probably won't have had brain surgery themselves).

I see a lot of demands for access to women-only spaces but very few requests. People need to respect the opinions of women, as it is their space that is being encroached (leaving trans men out of the discussion for now).

And as for entry to spaces for vulnerable women (hostels, hospital wards etc) absolutely not. These spaces are 100% about the women using the facilities.

I don't know what the answer is.

We do know what is the answer .. a blanket ban on all males however they choose to express themselves [the only proportionate means] to ensure as best we can the safety, wellbeing, privacy and dignity of females in all their single-sex spaces, services, advancement schemes and sports [the legitimate aim].

So, advocate for third and separate equivalency for all those who "transition", are non-binary or whatever other label they choose to apply beyond female and male.

Unisex. Lets just bring back the good old term unisex for a third space.

When females fully understand the implications of this ideology not a single one consents to it, in my experience so far.

So, advocate for third and separate equivalency for all those who "transition", are non-binary or whatever other label they choose to apply beyond female and male.

If this isn't acceptable, you need to ask yourself why.

A third space which could be used by anyone, including trans people. So it doesn't other them.

If it's not sufficient, that's because it's not validating them as women.

And that's where your entire problem is.

When a man decides that a woman's sex segregation interferes with his validation, he is instantly proving the necessity of the segregation in the first place.

Women do not exist to validate men, particularly at the expense of their own safety and dignity.

And if you're having problems with these friends of yours not being validated by womankind, you also need to ask yourself why.

Have a look at this op. It's very good.
www.feministcurrent.com/2019/04/10/i-supported-trans-ideology-until-i-couldnt-anymore/

This is also a very good analysis about "gender dysphoria":

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Thing is women’s spaces and women’s legal rights only exist because female bodies are different to male bodies. If women can be male than we can no longer legally justify women’s rights and spaces.

if us liberal, western women don’t hold the line, then women in the developing world will be utterly fucked, they’ll never get the rights they need and deserve to be safe.

And if adult women everywhere don’t hold the line, then girls are also fucked. See this scenario as a current example: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3557951-Walkout-at-US-highschool-on-transgender-use-of-toilets

I would’ve been mortified if a boy in my class had ‘come out’ as female and I had to deal with periods and newly developing boobs with a male student in my school toilets and PE changing rooms. It’s shit to expect today’s girls to deal with it.

I also grew up knowing what I now thing of as “old school transsexuals” - people who, as adults, did what we would have called a “sex change” (inaccurately, but it was the common language). However, they all recognized they never really were fully “the opposite sex” no matter what, and didn’t force themselves into the sex segregated spaces of the opposite sex. The TRAs would call many of them “truscum” now.

A man is never a woman, no matter what hormones he takes or what he does to his body. A woman is never a man, no matter what hormones she takes or what she does to her body. Gender itself is nothing more than stereotypes and should be done away with completely - but that does not mean sex stops existing.

Your friends are entitled to not be discriminated against or harmed or persecuted for their mental illness, or how they dress, and such. That does not create a right to access spaces of the opposite sex, to take away rights and safety of others. Girls and women should not have to “guess” whether your friend is one of the “good ones” or not. He is still a man, etc.

If your friends don’t want to use the facilities of their sex, then they can advocate for third spaces, or advocate for and use spaces that are truly unisex and self-enclosed: a room with a locking door with its own toilet, sink, etc. My gym only has such rooms: 6 spaces all with locking doors accessible from main gym with a toilet, sink, shower, and room to change.

POST EDITED BY MNHQ

And for those girls in that Omaha school it is being FORCED on them against their consent by the state legislature. That is state-sponsored rape culture.

I don't think the first example of a breastfeeding room makes sense, because they are exclusively for the act of breastfeeding in the same way that changing rooms are for changing.

I don't think your answer makes sense, because women only spaces and services are for women. Its silly to be upset about being excluded from something that isn't designed for or needed by you.

A womens changing room is for women, and the women that use it are expecting it to be a single sex space.
hth.

A GRC was never an automatic license to be in womens spaces, that used to be assumed in a lot of cases but that seems to have changed. If however your friends pass well (ie difficult to tell they are trans) then having a GRC makes it more difficult to reveal their history.

Don't GRC's come u dear some kind of legal thing called a 'legal lie', where a lie is permitted to become legally true to help someone who's disphoria is really bad??

A GRC was never an automatic license to be in women's spaces

Indeed .. as is made very clear in this paragraph extracted from an open letter written by British lawyers:

"The Equality Act 2010 provides trans people with the important and necessary protection from discrimination on the basis of gender re-assignment. This is not the same as a general right of access to single sex spaces and services in all circumstances. It is established in case law that the comparator for a transgender person claiming discrimination in relation to gender re-assignment is not the sex which they are seeking transition to but that which they are seeking transition from."

forwomen.scot/30/03/2019/tie-letter-legal-response/

Unfortunately for your friends who I'm sure are lovely we need to legislate for the unsavoury characters who would abuse the ability to use women's facilities.

And in the UK we have the full protection of the law when ti comes to women's communal spaces being intruded by men, regardless of how they express themselves. See Equality Act, Schedule 3 [General Exceptions], section 27 [single-sex services] subsection 6:

(6)The condition is that—

(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

So, this is the part of the law that protects our women's public toilets, changing rooms, all women's single-sex spaces and all it takes is for one woman to report her objection and the man has to be removed, regardless of how he expresses himself.

[See also Section 28 which explains that the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' does not have any precedence in relation to single sex spaces.]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

Unfortunately there is no compromise. You either believe in woman’s rights to single sex spaces or you don’t.

I believe in woman’s rights.

I am happy to support a campaign for third spaces though.

You can't compromise with consent.

This.

And none of us can consent on behalf of other women just because we have a nice trans friend.

When a man decides that a woman's sex segregation interferes with his validation, he is instantly proving the necessity of the segregation in the first place.

Thissss.

Unfortunately there is no compromise. You either believe in woman’s rights to single sex spaces or you don’t.

This ^^^

I do believe, passionately.

But if someone has gender dysphoria, has gone through steps to surgically change their body to match the gender they see themself as and has taken legal steps to change their identity then there needs to be some kind of acceptance

Why? What sort of acceptance when it comes to bathrooms and changing rooms for instance? Because we can't tell. They may have gone through surgery and law till the cows come home, and be really good and kind and civil people, but we are out in public and want to use the loo and we don't know who has taken these steps and who has not. So women may feel uncomfortable using their own spaces, if they see someone there who "does not pass". Whatever their intention.

Which is why it has to be very straightforward: if you are born male, do not use women's single sex spaces.

Maybe some people should read this analysis about gender dysphoria?

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I have to say the idea of "third unisex spaces" feels wrong to me! How would they be 'gatekept' as safe spaces for trans people?

Surely Michelle, those trans people turfed out of female only spaces by 'rule autocracisers' such as yourself, would find themselves in gender 'no persons land' discriminated by both sides.

I for one wouldn't advocate a ghetto of the psyche such as you're proposing.

If single gender zones, mono sexual zones if you will, are designed to protect from judgement, or even harassment by the other sex then let them do that and allow "women or men socialised or born by trial of Trans" to be equal! After all, as you said, trans women haven't had the same struggles as " 'cervix havers' " neither have you shared in their struggle, don't treat these spaces as sociological petri dishes that might some how infect your own biodrome.

I feel what you're really calling for is an ultra orthodox feminist space, which you're welcome to, just not under this guise of being a "normal" woman.

peace.