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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

415 replies

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 14:38

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

OP posts:
FuriousFifties · 16/05/2018 22:13

oh my god that is graphic surgery

TerfTerfTerf · 16/05/2018 22:13

Munroe actually looks more female without the braids, like a really natural attractive black woman who isn't making a huge effort to pass. Vanity is driving this surgery, just as it does most cosmetic procedures.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 22:13

I just don't get this level of privilege and self obsession. I don't get how ordinary people are supposed to sympathise with it.

They only do when they think they're constantly suicidal and at risk of transphobic violence. Doesn't mean they think they're women. If they did they'd expect them to suck it up, like women generally have to.

MrsWooster · 16/05/2018 22:14

Oh fuck, that surgery!!

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:15

I don't think facial touch ups should count as 'sex change' surgery. When people talk about trans ppl who have 'had the surgery' I think most assume it means genital surgery. Referring to boob jobs and facial updates as sex/gender change surgery feels underhand.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:15

To be fair you'd have to be fairly fucked up to do that to yourself...

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:17

MB said they finally look like their "idea of a woman". This is the truth right here. Its about a male idea of what a woman should be.

How can anyone not see how misogynist and fucked up that is?

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 22:17

100% agree this is just vanity. How can we feel sorry for MB! Like why do I feel like we're about to get asked to donate money? Feels like it's a charity advert!

Arghhh "My idea of a woman" did MB really just say that? Please say I misheard that! Urgh, so this What Makes a Woman? Is being well and truly answered openly by a man!

Pratchet · 16/05/2018 22:18

Paul Jones is a man prising another man for dismissing women's safety and the realities of sexism and sex discrimination.

spontaneousgiventime · 16/05/2018 22:18

IMO FFS is just vanity surgery, it has nothing to do with gender changing surgery at all.

Cooroo · 16/05/2018 22:18

I think Munroe is dysphoric and troubled. They aren't doing this on a whim. Trying to change their body to conform to some internal picture- are they also whiter than before?
If just wish they'd do it quietly and get on with their life.

DJLippy · 16/05/2018 22:19

I wonder if this whole season is a subversive attempt to #peaktrans a nation by giving people enough rope to hang themselves...THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY A CALL FOR TRANS FOLK TO KILL THEMSELVES THIS IS A TURN OF PHRASE.

Pratchet · 16/05/2018 22:19

The BBC is full of men like Paul Jones who think that other men in dresses have the perfect right to crap all over women's rights. They are either stupid or callous.

MrsWooster · 16/05/2018 22:19

I thought that too, TERF. Very beautiful. MB does say afterwards that they look like themself, which is fair enough. If only MB could be ok as themself, rather than having to actually go on to try and become something they can never be...

Noqonterfy · 16/05/2018 22:19

Its so difficult. She's been through a lot. I get that. But why cant she, and other people like her, debate and discuss this stuff properly. To understand the biological females perspective. Rather than shouting biological women down all the time. Its just bloody sad. Its either misogyny or a total lack of understanding. Or both.

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:21

It does feel like we are about to be asked for money. When I watched that advert posted earlier I thought I recognised the music - is that from a charity advert?

I'm trying to imagine someone like Katie Price being followed through surgery with sad music and this "it's necessary for my identity" storyline. It wouldn't happen would it?

(No shade on Katie Price here btw - just the first woman I thought of who has had extensive vanity surgery)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:23

I don't understand why MB wants to challenge gender norms by " changing sex" Confused

VaggieMight · 16/05/2018 22:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

MrsWooster · 16/05/2018 22:24

I felt I had to be so binary..." da fuck? MB is making themself totally stereotype.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:24

Why can't they "present" like that as males?

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:24

Why do we have to think "MB has been through so much". Who among women hasn't been dysphoric about their body at some point?

Holy shit I remember my first pregnancy. It completely changed my body. I don't look like the person in my 'before' pictures. Are people supposed to feel sorry for me? I don't.

DJLippy · 16/05/2018 22:25

Where are the transmen at that cool kid party?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:26

Again, why can't a Bergdof identify as a femme man? Confused

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:26

That fashion world they are in is so disconnected from the life I experience. They're 'redefining gender'? I don't think they've really spent long thinking about gender at all - it seems so shallow.

MrsWooster · 16/05/2018 22:26

All good on gender... why why why do the pretend change sex thing???