Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

[R0wantrees]

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

Ahh, the famous "except for relationship purposes". It's still my nomination for the left dude-bro tweet of 2018:

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

I'm just watching What makes a woman?

When she goes to the fashion show, she talks like this is the first generation to have non gender confirming people. There was nothing at that fashion show that hasn't already been done by generations and generations before.

She also contradicts herself. She says she is a woman and has always been 'on the inside' . But then said she looks to models for how to be a woman. If she is a woman she doesn't need to learn how to be one surely.

Finally why does she speak with an American accent when she is from Essex.

I second that nomination! Honourable mention for Ralf Little.

I think 'except for relationship purposes' is one of my fave tweets ever!

twitter.com/lilycollings/status/996869499558211584

Funny thread, an angry guy Wigwamjam caves in seconds when his mate points out MB is a man.

@Ereshkigal

What did ralf little actually do/say? I keep seeing him mentioned but I've never caught the details.

I am not sure this programme worked the magic with your average viewer as MB would have hoped. I haven't spoken about this at work (HR and all that) but one of my colleagues watched it. So started the discussion, pretty gentle ( I was restrained). I just said 'surely they should be fighting for their own spaces. I dont want my granddaughter to be confronted by a penis in a women's changing room'. They all agreed that would not be right. I said I would support trans women if they fought for their own space.

Then I said something about being pretty with false hair and nails and cosmetic surgery does not make a woman, especially if they have a penis. I was told she had refused to answser the question about whether she still had a penis, which everyone said tells it all. And they all agreed MB could not be a woman with a penis. So a bit of a home goal. Women are seeing through the smoke and mirrors.

Can anyone unpack this for me? How is feeling the need / desire to shave your legs a sign of being uncomfortable in your male body?

An aspect of gender ideology is that people are inherently feminine or masculine and therefore we must perform our gender to be our authentic selves.
That is the reason they invented the category enby, non binary, to cover the majority of the population that does not perform masculinity and femininity.
Sex is a verb and never ever ever a noun.

Not surprisingly when you unpack that baggage a great deal of misogyny spills out.

I increasingly think that the euphemistic use of the word gender instead of sex has contributed quite a lot.

I remember those dolls with crochet skirts to disguise the fact there were spare loo rolls!

Watching now - thing I’m most pissed off about is that they’ve used the Vikings theme song as background music.

I just watched it and my take away was the unequivocal feeling that MB is a gay male with body dysmorphia. Also a strange feeling of confusion. Why does MB want to be seen as a woman?

I know that there was a lot of deifying models - something I've never done myself, but a lot of gay men go into fashion don't they?

The whole thing in the questionnaire at the end about always being playful, flirtatious and susceptible to flattery - I don't know any woman who would describe themselves that way - but definitely gay men.

It seemed a bit sad really - that lack of self-acceptance. I wonder if the turning point happened around the time of that awful attack.

I watched this on catch up and I was surprised I didn't totally detest MB as I expected to.

The surgery was horrific, all to have a few mm shaved off their forehead and have their chin altered. I didn't really see a huge difference afterwards but obviously MB did. Don't quite understand why they would go through that but not 'bottom surgery' if their dysphoria was that bad.

The main thing I was left with was that MB looked far more feminine with their natural hair, after cutting out the cheesy looking braids (or wearing the pink wig).

Tbh I don't care what MB feels that being female is. She can do what she wants. That's ok. But the problem is where she doesn't give a shit what women actually think about self ID. And the potential risks to women, when it gives men the freedom to stop women from challenging them. Although she wants to buy in to being female, she ain't a feminist. And thats a load of misogynist crap. I guess that's the whole point about all of this really. Its about what some men want. Fuck what the women want or need. Imo someone who is a feminist in the true sense of the word would consider the issue and concerns of the group they want to be part of. And try and find a solution that helps everyone. But that's not what a small but loud group of transwomen want. They just want the right to do whatever they want. Fuck the knock on effect and consequences of that to others.

doesn't give a shit what women actually think about self ID

That was glaring, but it was just bog-standard male privilege.

All those mean women - so cold-hearted they don't allow males to park on them and feed until their hearts and bellies are content....

All those mean women - so cold-hearted they don't allow males to park on them and feed until their hearts and bellies are content

That pretty much sums it up.

There's a lot of them parked over here now, like buzzards.

Feeding frenzy

Katialoo

Ralf waded in and tutted at "transphobic" feminists and told us we weren't real feminists I think. He got some pushback from feminists so he agreed to listen a bit to their concerns, then he got some pushback from transactivists for that so he doubled down on his original view that we were all mean bigotty bigots.

I've been wondering about people like Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees etc. If an important part of your self-identity is looking glamorous, what will happen to them when they get older? I imagine the Bergdorf look takes quite a lot of time, money and effort. It will be harder and harder to sustain that in one's 40s, 50s or 60s.

hackmum They will then claim we are being ageist and if they "feel" like they are only 25 then of course they are 25 (even if that truth is that they are biologically 45) and how dare we say or think anything else!

Munroe should probably age quite well, being of mixed race. Not sure about Paris though.

They will be like women (eg actresses) whose value has been placed on their looks, and undergo more and more surgery

On rewatch I wasnt completely right before about the 'science bit'. The main researcher (sorry keep forgetting her name) did say "according to the results from your questionnaire and brain scan" although there was a small pause between. Some questions from the questionnaire were read out, questions like "do you like being flattered"

The study they were doing had 100 participants (so far), of which "many" identified as trans. Interestingly the main researcher (she was a neuropsychologist I think?) at one point says (paraphrasing) that alongside the trans people they also included many healthy men and women as a control. Healthy was an interesting choice of word I thought.

Given the small number of participants and the questionnaire questions we heard, I can't say it seems like a very useful study. Giving MB their 'results' the way they did was really sketchy. Don't know who is funding their research

Really starting to wonder if C4 are mocking the TAs now!