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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

415 replies

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 14:38

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

OP posts:
Moonkissedlegs · 16/05/2018 19:03

I await 'What Makes a Man' with baited breath.

terryleather · 16/05/2018 19:05

Identifies I trust all involved curtsied when in MB's rarefied lady presence

sportinguista · 16/05/2018 19:07

Call me old fashioned but I always believed it was XX chromosomes, the requisite reproductive bits and of course being an adult, not being a bloke in a frock with enough plastic surgery to qualify as a lego person...

BeyondPink · 16/05/2018 19:08

Great video with Venice, although not entirely happy with the open ending after MBs statement. A statement that can be countered, quite easily, actually MB.

Jeanhatchet · 16/05/2018 19:14

The quote "there are no statistics to suggest that trans women are a threat to anybody"

Content warning:

Bethany Hill was murdered in 2016 by Kayleigh Woods. Kayleigh Woods is a trans woman who then lied saying she found Bethany dead.

Prior to the murder Woods had "joked" about the killing by enacting torture upon a barbie doll which was subsequently performed on the victim. This involved stripping her naked and tying her up with tape by binding her wrists and ankles together. Then repeatedly slashing at her with a large knife. Then finally slitting her throat.

There's your statistic.

raisinsraisins · 16/05/2018 19:16

MB thinks that women who don't want transwomen in their spaces are transphobic, as she believes this implies that transwomen are potential rapists etc.

This is what makes her not a woman! From a young age, girls know to be wary of men in vulnerable places. This does of course not mean that all men are rapists, but that they have the potential that they could be.

BeyondPink · 16/05/2018 19:18

I assume every transwoman in a UK prison (the ones with GRCs just as much as the SIers) is there for not paying their TV licence...?

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 20:04

Oh the sad sad music and crocodile tears.

On Genderquake the other day I was thinking how sat down, not saying anything, Bergdorf almost passes.

This video shows otherwise. All that money spent on vanity and MB is still clearly identifiable in the cold light of day.

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 20:09

So let me get this right... a man dedicated what a documentary about women must contain and who can work on it and that he must be the centre of that "documentary" ....

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/05/2018 20:14

The Venice/Munro clip really clearly illustrates 'woman as female human' versus 'woman as make up and boobs'. Munro sits there lecturing a woman about feminism, speaking in a man's voice but feeling entitled to do so because of Munro's performance of traditional patriarchally approved femininity. Made it very very clear what this whole battle is about.

Tinlegs · 16/05/2018 20:51

Please, please let there be a comeback from Venice. Let her show MB up for the real person MB is.

NoseringGirl · 16/05/2018 20:52

Judging by what MB has said about MB's control over the production. I doubt any sort of good argument Venice would have made will make the final edit.

NoseringGirl · 16/05/2018 20:53

As in, MB will get the final word in whatever is shown.

theaveragewife · 16/05/2018 20:58

The clip makes it look hopeful, but the ending portrays the way in which C4 will cut it - sympathetically towards the TRA. Part of me hopes this is enough to make people question wtf is going on, it will give enough visibility to the issue and lend a sympathetic slant to gender critical feminists as the underdogs.

We know the general public love calling out bullshit and there’ll be plenty of it tonight so I’m hopeful not for the immediate future, but the one just ahead. I’m also wine numbed as I also didn’t sleep after the genderquake debate. Wine

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 21:07

please let there be a comeback from Venice. Let her show MB up for the real person MB is.

She doesnt need a comeback really. I doubt very many people will be watching who don't already take one view (transwomen are women!) or the other (they're men).

But of any who haven't gone either way yet, I don't think MB comes across as genuine at all - just a vain 'not-even-a-reality-tv-star'. MB is not a sympathetic character.

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 22:07

"Always felt female".... and how do you feel female exactly MB?

Cooroo · 16/05/2018 22:08

I don't identify with the old aspects of my face.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:09

Is surgery really the best way to feel at home in your skin?

LizzieSiddal · 16/05/2018 22:10

I can’t watch as I know I’ll get angry, then I won’t sleep.

MrsWooster · 16/05/2018 22:10

Loving the "be your own tribe" tshirt

DJLippy · 16/05/2018 22:10

Are the surgeons shaving down her manly bridges or her black bridges? This isn' Munroe making themselves more white is it?

JoanSummers · 16/05/2018 22:11

I've never seen somebody work so hard to sell vanity surgery as something we should be sympathetic to before. Our culture doesn't treat women sympathetically for getting vanity surgery.

I can't imagine having seven grand to blow on my face. That would be a life changing amount of money to my entire family.

I just don't get this level of privilege and self obsession. I don't get how ordinary people are supposed to sympathise with it.

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 22:12

Urgh! Fuming already. MB hit nail on head when she started bringing up stereotypes of feminine - so why are you conforming MB !? Delusional!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2018 22:12

I'm not sure that ordinary people will identify with it - could this backfire?

spontaneousgiventime · 16/05/2018 22:12

With no make-up and braids MB looks really, really masculine. I'm shocked at what the make-up MB wears does. They must trowel it on.

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