Radio 4 now

[Pratchet]

Listen back to Lucy Massoud on Radio 4 - she is stellar. She's on now.

What a woman. Will listen later.

Lucy was fantastic! I was cheering at the radio

I suspect "I'm not transphobic, you just don't agree with me" is going to be heard a lot more!

It's 2:38 hours in, if anyone's searching!

Bloody missed it. Can anyone confirm if it was Emily Brothers? She was the Labour candidate in my constituency. I'd like to inform people I know that saying something that is biological reality is transphobic.

Yes, it was Emily Brothers. He was hopeless.

I have listened against and she was just as good second time around 😁

Just listened now the last 30 minutes has been uploaded.
A very good interview that should help the debate reach a wider audience.

I'm sure the FBU knows about the petition, they are brilliant and have Paul embery as well.

LittleLebowski

I've posted a link upthread a bit. Listen to the last 20 mins of the programme.

It was compelling, the presenter almost sounded like she was having to duck out of the way. You rarely hear them continuing to argue as the mikes are removed on R4.

I support Lucy's view, and thought Emily was being ridiculous to deny what's going on, but it was very clear that Emily simply cannot understand the point. Cannot grasp that there is more for a woman to being a woman than deciding to be a woman, and that the aggressive and denying stance of some vocal trans activists is so very recognisable as a very familiar male misogynist approach.

These vocal trans activists are so rarely female-to-male, aren't they (though I'm sure there are some of course).

It was great. I think avoiding low blows, being respectful but unrelenting about what is and isn't transphobic is very powerful when it comes to mainstream media.

I don't think the term 'women with trans experience' will stick. Anyone who has a family member, colleague, friend who is trans has trans experience!

So many of the arguments put forward by TRAs are so thin that their only hope it to try and shut down challenges through claims of transphobia. The wider public are very able to tell what is transphobic and what isn't.

At worst, I think the average listener may think saying transwomen are men is unkind. I don't think they will think that transwomen are women.

It is indeed Emily Brothers, an 'openly lesbian' trans woman.

Yes it was Emily Brothers first Labour trans candidate. Did not get voted in.

You know, I can't help wondering if Lucy Masoud - female, lesbian, likes fire engines - was growing up now, whether she would be encouraged down the trans route.

Didn't she say that in her London talk

What were the arguments put forward by Emily. I missed them. (Apart from the women with trans experience and the trans phobia stuff)

I doubt that. Who doesn't like a fire engine! When my children were at primary school the local fire brigade often brought the engine in during the summer fete. It was popular with everyone!

Did she Pratchet ?

That's interesting. I will try to track down a link later.

I do hope somebody tweets the evidence of that union demo to Emily.

Lucy Masoud spoke with such authority. You could hear the simmering frustration in her voice, but she kept total control. It was like listening to an adult deal with a spoiled, fractious toddler demanding cake for breakfast.

It's all there now: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09vyvxk#play

Starts at 2:38.

Lucy, if you're reading, you were ace. Utterly logical and not conceding that men who 'feel like women' are women. Well done.

I have not heard of Lucy Masoud so I looked her up - what a woman!

Excellent Lucy.

The last thing she says is that me can be women on any given day. No one knows this is what's happening. The Today program needs to meet Phil Bunce and read the Stonewall guidelines on gender expression!