Parental Alienation

[fatoldandbroke]

There is currently an open petition to introduce a law that recognises Parental Alienation as a criminal offence, that seems to be gaining some momentum. 6500 signatures and the government has to respond at 10000 signatures. This form of abuse affects Mums, Dads, Step parents, Grandparents and wider family.
Rather depressingly, twice as many people have signed a petition asking for a law to protect brown hares!?!
Hopefully this link will work, but I am a computer biff so if it doesn't please could someone who knows what they are doing post it?
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/249833

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230349

Hares ^

Brown hares

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230349

Hmmm....not very well worded, is it? We don’t recognise ‘parental alienation’ as a thing. That would be a starting point.

And if we are going to criminalise something so complex, How about we also criminalise the non-payment and avoidance of child maintenance?

The problem is Parental Alienation can happen after the children reach adulthood. Hurts just as much.

Sir Andrew MacFarlane acknowledges that PAS is not a recognised syndrome and feels that whatever we call the manipulation of children is irrelevant. Children get manipulated by fathers, mothers and other family members to the detriment of those children.
As the new head of the family division, I would imagine his view carries some authority.
I make no apologies for the wording of the petition. It is not my petition.
Child maintenance payment is heavily regulated by government. Most avoidance is achieved by under reporting of income and this is already criminal.

How do you define Parental Alienation?
How do you measure it? ie what is the threshold point at which it becomes a criminal offence?

Far too many variables....

Parental alienation, or whatever you want to call it, has been clearly defined by many professionals. There are anonymised transcripts of hearings where it has been proved to the satisfaction of court, available in the public domain.
Although it is not for me to comment, I imagine that when PA is proven to the satisfaction of a court is when criminal proceedings could be considered.
If we consider that the criminal justice system is mostly about deterance, criminalising this behaviour should help to prevent it.
I find it hard to understand anyone who opposes the criminalisation of child abuse?

I'm asking you to define it because I don't know what you mean by it and if you're going to post about I expect you to be able to tell me what it is.

I find it hard to understand anyone who opposes the criminalisation of child abuse
Well of course I don't. So tell me how Parental Alienation differs and why we need separate legislation for it.

Nobody thinks that emotionally harming a child is a good thing.

I think that it's a shame that the petitioner didn't include other child welfare issues like calling for a ban on physical punishments like smacking.

Considering the lack of will to send non-payers of CM to jail, do you think that courts would actually jail anyone for this? Does it not come under child abuse?

It would not be appropriate for me to offer anyone a definition of PA, or whatever you want to call the manipulation of children. I’m not a professional in this field. There is extensive literature available that can inform your decisions as to whether to sign the petition or not.
I can only offer my own opinion that specific legislation is required, because of the particular nature of these behaviours and the incredible life long damage it can cause to children.
Some parts of the UK already have a ban on the physical punishment of children and rightly so.
Brazil and Mexico already regard PA as a criminal offence.
I’m confused with the comments on child maintenance, which is a very separate issue and already heavily legislated and regulated by government.
Are people suggesting that if they don’t get paid it is ok to manipulate a child?

Why would you add smacking?
Mental abuse isn't dealt with when it comes to children unless it's a serious issue and with PA it doesn't alway come evident until it's either to late or the child is now an adult with deep route issues.

If you hear a mother telling her child gays are bad and are all pedophiles because she doesn't like them or she has met a few bad ones you would think she is a bad mother. That she was forcing her views on her child.

Too many parents say they would do anything for their child, but can't separate their own feelings and emotions.

Child maintenance payment is heavily regulated by government. Most avoidance is achieved by under reporting of income and this is already criminal

Don’t make me laugh. My ex hasn’t paid a penny in 10 years. The case is with the relevant authorities....nothing. He does, however, see his children weekly without any interference from me.

The non payment of maintenance is a huge issue. It is out and out neglect. It is also very clear cut. PAS, on the other hand, is far more complex and is different in every case. I am not sure either how you tell the difference between a child who would prefer not to have a relationship with a parent they have heard bad mouth the other parent and the child who has had a parent deliberately drip feed poison at the same time. I don’t deny it happens but I think the line is fine and many parents who claim to be victims of PAS are also guilty of poor behaviour themselves.

I’m sorry, but I simply drew attention to an open petition about PA.
I think the courts very deliberately regard CM and child arrangements as completely separate. Whether that is right or wrong is another debate.
I can’t comment on your own situation and I can’t comment on the CMS. I have never had any involvement with them.
I can tell you that I firmly believe that every parent should strive to meet their financial responsibilities to their children. AFAIK there is adequate legislation and punitive measures available to the authorities. Whether the system works or not, I don’t know. I’m sorry to hear about your situation, but I’m sure you can appreciate that there are also many cases where the NRP pays CM, despite the fact that the RP obstructs contact.
I think that PA and CM are separate issues, or at least they should be.
I think is is naively dismissive to suggest that PA is simply too complex an issue to legislate for. Other countries already do it and our justice system already deals with all sorts of extremely complex criminal behaviour.

I have seen cases where the father accuses the mother of parental alienation, when what has really happened is the kids have sussed out their dad is a shit. Kids aren't stupid. If you neglect them, make promises you don't keep, don't seem at all bothered about keeping in touch with them, or treat their mother like shit, then they are going to realise their dad is not a good guy.
I would be worried that a law like this would simply be abused by men who commit domestic violence. So no way would I support this.

I do want brown hares saved though.

Exactly that amandacarnet the family courts are already used as a forum to continue domestic abuse and control by perpetrators, and there is consensus in the professional literature on that (unlike on parental alienation).

I’m sure we can all point out cases of bad behaviour by parents.
All legislation is open to subjective interpretation and will be manipulated and misrepresented by people of both genders. They call themselves the legal profession. This cannot detract from the requirement to criminalise child abuse.
I respect your decision not to sign the petition.
I am finding myself increasingly concerned about the welfare of brown hares.

Is letting a child know about a NRP's behaviour (either before or after relationship breakdown) PA? If a RP only ever makes factual statements about the NRP, can it be considered PA?

I don’t think it is helpful to suggest what any potential legislation may mean for men or women. AFAIK bad behaviour is not confined to either gender.
I personally want to save all the brown hares, whatever gender they identify as.

Domestic abuse is more than simply ‘bad behaviour’ by parents, though.

Domestic abuse has negative effects on children as well.

I have been trying for six years to sort out contact arrangements after leaving a controlling marriage. Can I repeat that? Six years. Child has a range of additional needs and sees father as ‘too organised’. Child copes with and enjoys short and occasional contact. Father does not accept this. I have tried and tried and tried to find some kind of acceptable solution all around but basically the more additional contact is pushed, the more child pushes back. If child keeps pushing back and refuses to go at all, then who has alienated the child?!?

At what point is pushing for more contact abuse of the child who has clearly said no? I left the marriage and yet the law expects me to put my child in a situation I could not cope with. Child is saying loudly and clearly where their boundaries are.

Can I just say that again? SIX years. I am not even going to say how much money in legal fees.

I was accused of this since I couldn't accommodate my (unemployed) exs exact time of seeing our dc when I was at work and they were in child care. Because he couldn't have them from 2.15 to 3.45 on Tuesdays and Fridays (when his friend was coming to our town and he could get a lift here and back) he chose not to see them at all, but it's my fault because I denied the contact.

There's far too many variables and far too many people who would be accused of this out of spite. There are more pressing issues that need to be addressed, such as child support.

I have signed this OP.
I do not understand why you are getting so much grief OP.
I have been through this where my ex tried to alienate my then 6 yo DS from me.
His shitty girlfriend has very successfully alienated her teenage daughter from her father who she has refused to see for 2 years.
It’s is incredibly common and children are often used as “weapons” in vicious divorces / splits

I suppose there are always two sides to every story.
Instead of putting our own view across to our children, perhaps we should put aside our view of the other parent and encourage our children to have a healthy relationship with both of their parents.
I will be explaining the plight of brown hares to my children.

Statistics show the the vast majority of domestic abuse is perpetrated by men, though, and women face structural inequalities which men do not.

I do agree that controlling, manipulative behaviour can be perpetuated by women on children, though as I grew up with that. But I think the better approach there would be to extend existing legislation on domestic abuse and coercive control vertically as well as horizontally, and acknowledge it harms children as well, whatever its form. This would be supported by the professional literature, whereas PA is surrounded by controversy.