Parental Alienation

[fatoldandbroke]

There is currently an open petition to introduce a law that recognises Parental Alienation as a criminal offence, that seems to be gaining some momentum. 6500 signatures and the government has to respond at 10000 signatures. This form of abuse affects Mums, Dads, Step parents, Grandparents and wider family.
Rather depressingly, twice as many people have signed a petition asking for a law to protect brown hares!?!
Hopefully this link will work, but I am a computer biff so if it doesn't please could someone who knows what they are doing post it?
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/249833

I think it is a child protection issue.

I agree, but not for the reason you think.

Say you have a young child who goes to visit their non resident parent every other weekend. Every time they come back they’re withdrawn, distressed, acting strangely, telling you they don’t want to visit any more. You ask them why and what’s happened - the child says nothing has happened, they just don’t want to go.

You tell your solicitor this, and they say “tough - this will be seen as PA and you can be prosecuted if you don’t send the child as ordered”

How would you feel about that system?

Hopelessly naive = wilfully naive

“She don’t let me see my kids, she’s turned them against me”

The warcry of shit fathers the world over

Where’s this hare petition?

Dear God. We have now descended to shit Father’s, war cry’s, stupid social workers, inept solicitors, ineffectual SS. I’m sure the biased Judges will be along in a minute.
There seems to be some consensus that child abuse is very difficult to detect and prove, but PA just has to be mentioned?? I don’t think that is reasonable.
I also think that the argument is irrelevant.
If child abuse is detected and proved, the perpetrator will be prosecuted and punished.
If PA is detected and proved, the perpetrator.....................

6802 signatures. The Brown hares are still ahead. You do realise that some of those hares are male, don’t you?

I won’t sign.

“Shielding from their parents conflicts” can also mean gaslighting kids that one of their parents isn’t behaving like an utter tool ime. As a child/teen I longed for my mum to confirm to me that I wasn’t wrong to feel utterly disappointed in my useless father but she was desperate to remain “fair” and not “harm our relationship”. It left me feeling very, very confused. She would tell me that he was still my dad and still loved me yet I knew I had become very low down his list of priorities. THAT definitely left me with low self-esteem and vulnerable to poor treatment in later relationships.

Arf

Very well said. My children’s father is a manipulative alcoholic. I’d be failing them if I sat on the fence and refused to validate their sadness at his treatment of them. I say what they don’t feel they can because he’s their Dad. I don’t call him names or attack him verbally unprovoked but when he’s let them down for the 100th time or not bothered seeing them for six months then I certainly show that his treatment of them makes me angry because they’re wonderful and they don’t deserve it. If you don’t counter the emotional negligence from one parent with validation of your child’s feelings of pain how can they learn to value themselves and establish strong boundaries?

I’m not suggesting that there aren’t bad Fathers, of course there are. There are also bad Mothers.
Interesting to see the term gaslighting in a thread about PA!

If child abuse is detected and proved, the perpetrator will be prosecuted and punished.
If PA is detected and proved, the perpetrator.....................

Again you’re missing the point. There will be rare and extreme cases where the abuse is known and prosecuted.

For the most part, it’s children saying they don’t want to go or parents detecting strange behaviour in their children after contact. It’s going to be even more difficult for parents to back up their child if they know they risk being prosecuted for PA, isn’t it?

I explicitly asked you above how you’d feel sending your child into a situation where you know something is wrong but you don’t know what, because of fears of prosecution if you don’t. Weirdly you’ve ignored that but do like to focus on what you see as unfair bias.

Social services and judges get limited time with people to assess the situation. They can get it horribly wrong as we know, and they can get it moderately wrong, especially when dealing with someone who’s adept at manipulation

I don’t think I have suggested any bias.
To answer your question, I would not put my child in danger under any circumstances and I would risk prosecution to protect my child, if I had a rational reason to believe the child is at risk.
I would not prevent my child having a relationship with their other parent, because they said they didn’t want to go today and that suits me just fine.
Any parent can voice concerns at any time.
It is interesting to see you accuse the other parent of manipulation.

To answer your question, I would not put my child in danger under any circumstances and I would risk prosecution to protect my child, if I had a rational reason to believe the child is at risk.

Says someone who has no idea of what it was like to do exactly that.

As it was i was told if i stood in the way of contact one more time they would give the children full time to the individual who was causing them harm....

If the petition has its way id have ended up in jail too

Why do you think people should sign a petition for you when you refuse to define what the petition is about? I'm also wondering why you yourself have signed a petition not knowing what it's about but I guess that's your lookout.

I would not prevent my child having a relationship with their other parent, because they said they didn’t want to go today and that suits me just fine

I welcomed my child free time and can assure you it was massively challenging to be faced with a child begging you not to be forced to go to the other parent because of their angry and controlling nature. My DC woke one morning and said, I am not going this evening as too scared. I had work commitments and it was a nightmare to figure out.

Bullying is not easy for a child to prove, there were no witnesses so you have to believe the child. I didn't just say, "ah ok, you don't have to go". I explored it over days/weeks as it takes that time for a child to discuss it. Children have to be believed but PAS doesn't allow for that.

In my case raising it with Ex was futile, he was blameless and thought I was just trying to prevent him seeing the DC.
I got a counsellor for the children and she spoke at length and then relayed it to Ex. Still didn't stop him, got Cafcass involved and only after a report did he change his behaviour.
If my DC had been younger they would not have been believed. The whole theory behind PAS is that the parent is putting words into the child's mouth so if they say "dad bullies me", it is interpreted as mum has told child to say it.

It is why PAS is so dangerous as it is a no win situation for children who are being emotionally harmed..they will not believed unless they are over 11. Worse still is that the "protecting" parent could be prosecuted so they are only left with the abusive parent.

One mum I know has a 13 who refuses to see Dad as he was physically aggressive to him, pushing him hard against a wall and routinely swearing at him. Dad claims PAS and is believed so mum has to write a weekly update on what she is doing to help her DC see the dad. The child will tell anyone loudly why he doesn't want to go but the courts are so desperate to encourage parental contact they minimise the aggression. The dad was told to apologise and go for anger management.

If this was a random attack on the street do we think the child would be made to stay with his attacker??

Good. It’s a real problem which needs addressing.

Not sure why you are getting such a hard time OP.

Most PA’s are RP mothers. Disgusting behaviour using children this way.

Parental alienation? I bet my ex is arrogant enough to think that this happens with me/our children.

We just don't talk about him - he really isn't that interesting

To answer your question, I would not put my child in danger under any circumstances and I would risk prosecution to protect my child, if I had a rational reason to believe the child is at risk.
I would not prevent my child having a relationship with their other parent, because they said they didn’t want to go today and that suits me just fine.
Any parent can voice concerns at any time.
It is interesting to see you accuse the other parent of manipulation.

Oh it’s “interesting” to see me accuse the other parent of manipulation, when I’ve already explained that I personally was groomed and abused by the other parent, as was my mother? Your bias is abundantly clear.

If you are concerned about your child being abused when they are with their other parent, you’re going to risk prosecution so that they can have your child full time?

Have you never seen the posts on here from women whose spouse is abusive and they’re terrified to leave because they know they’ll get unsupervised access to the children if they divorce? Do you have any concept of how this feels as a parent? How do you think the system will establish the difference between legitimate PA and victims of abuse when it has such a horrendous track record of prosecuting and convicting abusers.

Nothern is your ascertain that most PA is done by mothers based on stats or just your biased view of RP mothers?

Children may be manipulated by the RP the NRP by Grandparents or by other family member. There are no statistics.
Your desire for statistical evidence to choose who to blame demonstrates your complete lack of empathy for children.
Predictably, this thread is not about children. It’s about mothers.

My desire for facts getting in the way? Because i asked for stats i dont care about children?

Its about blaming the perpetrators, Northern jumped straight in saying its mostly mothers.

This is why the petition is dangerous.

Absolutely no way is this a good idea.

When RPs report NRPs to social care for abusive behaviour, they are simply told it is their responsibility to keep the child safe. They aren't supported with a recommendation for contact to cease or any sort of investigation.

If you add to that the danger of prosecution if you withhold contact or support your child in their wish not to attend contact, you place the RPs in an impossible position.

I've seen a NRP who has been abusive to their DCs constantly accusing the RP of PA. It's rubbish but if things are said and recorded enough times, they start to stick. IF PA becomes a crime, the RP is stuck between risking prosecution for trying to protect their children and risking losing their children if they don't.

Nobody couldn't ever prove PA anyway. It would end up being decided on the balance of probabilities which is grossly unfair.

Your desire for statistical evidence to choose who to blame demonstrates your complete lack of empathy for children

Yet there has been thread after thread explaining the abuse and manipulation of both mother and child by an ex partner which you have chosen to discount? Where is your empathy with both women and children who have experienced this kind of abuse under the guise of PA?

Okay, let me put this more positively.

How do I get special needs DC to want more contact with dad? Because that is really the first question, isn’t it? How do resident parents persuade reluctant children into the contact non-resident parents wish? How does that actually work in practice? What words or actions are there, because I think I have exhausted them - but you would be willing to slap a label on my DC’s non-compliance with his father’s wishes and criminalise me, so maybe you have some suggestions?

To all the people who put forward reasonable discussion, thank you. I have learned a lot and seen another view. I will give this serious consideration. Thanks

And Northern chimes in and shows us the problem. My DD actually resents the fact that I made her see her dad for years until she was finally old enough to refuse, although she understands I did it for the best of reasons. When she did refuse, at age 16, the first thing he did was blame me and stop paying child support.

Predictably, this thread is not about children. It’s about mothers.

No it isn’t. Many have posted about their children’s needs. Others like myself have posted about their experiences as abused children.

Personally I know that if this had been law when I was a child, I would have been forced into continuing contact with the parent who was abusing me until I found the strength to tell my mother, if indeed I ever did. Should she have risked prosecution to protect me if she didn’t know? Maybe she should have, but would she have? No.