Parental Alienation

[fatoldandbroke]

There is currently an open petition to introduce a law that recognises Parental Alienation as a criminal offence, that seems to be gaining some momentum. 6500 signatures and the government has to respond at 10000 signatures. This form of abuse affects Mums, Dads, Step parents, Grandparents and wider family.
Rather depressingly, twice as many people have signed a petition asking for a law to protect brown hares!?!
Hopefully this link will work, but I am a computer biff so if it doesn't please could someone who knows what they are doing post it?
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/249833

Believe me, I have put ex’s desire and wishes for more contact, the advantages of seeing dad more etc etc to DC. That does not change what DC feels he can cope with.

Anyway, I will leave it there.

@KataraJean, well said.

I would have believed PAS existed had I not had the situation where my DC didn't want to spend much time with their controlling Dad. He would constantly say it was PAS despite me doing everything I could to facilitate contact. I would get phone calls when they were with him upset and stressed because of his behaviour. My DC said "you got away because Dad was angry all the time, why can't we".

Thankfully CAFCASS recognised the children were old enough to explain that their reluctance to spend time with with their Dad was due to his angry controlling behaviour and they suggested he see someone I could however very easily have been blamed for PAS if my DC were not as articulate.
Fortunately Ex did take onboard feedback from Cafcass and whilst not perfect he is less controlling so they see him more regularly. He changed and that was the fix.

We have to be careful as PAS can easily be used by controlling men rather than having to take responsibility for their behaviour.

I see more cases of children being forced to see a parent, rather than PAS and that definitely feels like child abuse. I think this will be a scandal in years to come when the children are older and say what their experiences were like.

I can appreciate that every situation is different.
Domestic abuse is against the law. It can be reported, investigated, prosecuted and the perpetrator punished.
PA is not against the law. It can be reported and investigated, but it cannot be prosecuted and the perpetrator cannot be punished.
Whether the system works well in every circumstance or not is not the point of the petition.....I think.
Recently new domestic abuse law came into force covering a wide range of abuse. This includes socially isolating a partner, controlling who a partner can see or communicate with, coercive abuse, emotional abuse and psychological abuse. It is now illegal to treat your partner in this way. Why shouldn’t it be illegal to treat your child in this way?

I can only offer my own opinion that specific legislation is required, because of the particular nature of these behaviours and the incredible life long damage it can cause to children.

You know what else causes life long damage to children? Being forced to see a parent who’s secretly abusing you because your parent is scared of being prosecuted for parental alienation if you don’t.

I was abused by my father as a child. I didn’t tell my mum, I didn’t tell anyone. I told her I didn’t want to go any more, and she said I had to go otherwise he would stop paying maintenance (he had form for this).

Then when I was about 13, I returned from a visit and told my mother about violence I had witnessed between my father and SM. My mum agreed I didn’t have to see him any more. He of course stopped paying maintenance. She took him to court and he played the doting father who was being kept away from his children by his evil ex wife who was poisoning us against him.

Thank god my mum couldn’t be prosecuted for PA because I’m sure she would have continued to send me after I’d seen my SM try to stab my father, and my abuse would have continued far longer.

I’m sure there are some legitimate cases of PA but I’m also sure there are many more that are actually cases of abuse where there’s no evidence for the court to consider, and where the resident parent may not even know the child is being abused.

Another one who got hauled through the court by an abusive ex because i was "alienating" the kids. Pass your bill I'd probably have been criminalised, cos according to Social workers, it was me that was abusing the kids by my bad opinion of Dad.

When he actually hospital level injured them. They were able to stop going (Although apparently it would have been boarderline had he taken it to court).

Your petition is dangerous.

It's not a clear cut offence. It's unprovable and therefore unenforceable.

I didn't see my dad much as a kid. Mum called him to fuck at home but she wasn't lying when she said he was abusive (we watched him beat her up). She wasn't lying when she said he was a liar (DSis and I saw his mistresses and were sworn to secrecy). She wasn't lying when she said he had a nasty temper (I experienced that first hand regularly). She wasn't bullshitting us when she said he didn't care much about DSis and I, which was evidenced by the refusal to pay any child support or buy us any clothes or shoes despite working, then only seeing us when his various girlfriends were busy. Mum never approached CMS again because dad just quit his job each time and worked cash in hand for a while.

So when we kids made plans to do other things and said no thanks to when he demanded a contact weekend, he screamed "Parental Alienation" and blamed mum.

I don't see why she should have had to grit her teeth and lie or never have any conversations about her ex husband in her own home. You cannot police peoples views in their own home, whether it is anti-Non resident parent, racist, sexist, homophobic or even Pro-Trump.

Child abuse is illegal. Domestic abuse is illegal. PA is not and yet I think it is broadly agreed to be abusive behaviour.
Although every normal parent is horrified by individual cases where the system has not worked, I don’t think it forms rational grounds to dismiss possible legislation that could protect children from harmful behaviour.
That is only my opinion.
I have already pointed out that the legal profession can and will attempt to use the law in ways it was not intended for. I don’t think it is reasonable to assume that we should just stop legislating, because the legal profession will make a mockery of it.
I have already pointed out that it is not my petition.
I started the one about brown hares.

But you're trying to get signatures for it.

PAS is singularly one of the biggest sticks used to beat and retain control of women and children who have otherwise escaped emotionally and physically abusive situations. You're petition is trying to get them criminalised as well. I cant believe you can't see how incredibly dangerous that is.

Many offences are not clear cut. We have justice system that is capable of investigating, proving and punishing very complex criminal behaviour.
To simply dismiss the notion, because my Dad/Mum/Grandparent is a knob is simplistic and naive.

Is now illegal to treat your partner in this way. Why shouldn’t it be illegal to treat your child in this way?

When parents are separated it is more difficult for a child to prove their parent is abusing them, the default seems be, it must be PAS. What counter measures are there to protect children who fear a parent?

I think true cases of PAS are rare, children are programmed to want to see their parents so if as child is reluctant to see a parent, usually the NRP, why aren't they believed?

The default should be every child is believed as it is very difficult for a child to articulate that they are being abused or controlled by a parent. Ime they tend to tolerate a lot before speaking up. Can you imagine the situation that they tell Cafcass and the "good" parent is prosecuted. It could be an abusers charter and lead to further child abuse.

Until we understand and successful deal with coercive control then we need to believe children who speak up about their abusive parents. This could silence children.

I have already pointed out that legislation exists dealing with domestic and child abuse. Anybody can access that.
I suspect that the gender specific posts about individual cases are unhelpful.
Strangely a post about possible child protection law has elicited opinion on child maintenance, domestic abuse, abuse of legal process, statistical analysis of domestic violence and gender specific criticism of the system.
I think debate is healthy, but perhaps debate about the matter at hand would be appropriate.
Please don’t forget about the brown hares.

OP, I don’t think you understand.

Yes, there is a legal framework in place for dealing with abuse of children but the authorities / courts need to know about it in order to pursue that.

Very few victims of child abuse speak out while the abuse is happening, for all manner of reasons, and that’s even more true when the abuser is a parent.

If this were law, it would absolutely force abused children to keep being sent to their abusive parent, no question. To avoid that you’re relying on groomed and abused children speaking out against their own parent to police and most likely in court. That rarely ever happens.

If this was law, I don’t think it would force anyone to do anything.
I don’t doubt your genuine concern for the safety of children.
I think the views of children are taken very seriously by the courts. Children can and do resist contact for many reasons. PA is only one possibility.
I don’t think the notion that a parent can simply suggest PA to a court and circumvent all protection measures is reasonable.

As far as i know its been illegal to hit a child round the head for a very long time. But look over the documentation and its me whose accused of abusing our children through PAS according to anyone in authority. Ex has no convictions of child abuse, (it was considered a private legal matter as there were no independent evidence to support the kids). I would have a conviction under your petition. Because a social wirker was too stupid to see through exH

Legal frameworks are rubbish when misused by abusive men.

I suspect that the gender specific posts about individual cases are unhelpful.

Yep because it isnt nice to face the nasty underbelly that will result from a pet cause

I don’t think the notion that a parent can simply suggest PA to a court and circumvent all protection measures is reasonable.
And yet that is exactly what

Those pesky individual case history's tell you will happen

Difficult to prove and open to abuse. That's the reality of it.

I don’t think the notion that a parent can simply suggest PA to a court and circumvent all protection measures is reasonable.

What protection measures do you think are employed in a case where the child hasn’t made any allegations of abuse? The idea that all abusive parents will have convictions for child abuse or domestic abuse is just so far removed from reality.

I think the views of children are taken very seriously by the courts

Only if they are deemed old enough. A child under 11 isn't listened too. A 8 year old child reported to his teachers and subsequently Head that they feared Dad collecting them for contact and they didn't want to go. School called mum but she could not break contact order due to accusations of PAS. SS were called but they just said to let contact go ahead and monitor the child the next day..
This is the reality. It happens all to frequentely Courts believe PAS, rather than children. I an just so glad my DC were old enough to be believed. Had they been younger it might have been assumed it was a case of PAS. Because they were believed Dad got the feedback he needed to stop being so controlling.
I would say let's believe and protect children first. After than we can consider more laws for parents but we are a long, long way from protecting children.

The legal framework to deal with coercive control is very recent, firstly, so many women who have left such marriages or relationships before the legislation but still have child contact matters to deal with.

Secondly, the problems of evidencing intimate partner violence, unless it is physical and breaks bones, are myriad. The number of convictions so far for coercive control and domestic abuse are a fraction of what is reported, and what is reported is a fraction of what happens. Every women’s organisation knows that.

One of the ways coercive control worked on me was that my husband would create an impossible position and i would spend hours and hours trying to explain why it was not possible or trying to reach it.

I am getting the same sense from this thread. It does not matter how much evidence and nuanced argument is put forward, you are going to continue to argue from a false premise rather than respond in good faith and take any counter-arguments on board. That is manifestly unfair to the women who are putting their time into trying to explain what has happened to them and the implications of this.

I am not a legal professional, but I don’t think abuse has to be “proved” for a court to protect a child.
Suggesting that possible legislation is inappropriate, because men are abusive and women know best demonstrates your argument eloquently.

What? Actually make it legal for shit fathers to trumpet to anyone who will listen that their "bitch ex wife is keeping me from my kids" and actually get her punished for it by law? No.

I don’t think this possible legislation has anything to do with shit Fathers or shit Mother’s.
I think it is a child protection issue.
Unfortunately, healthy debate seems to have descended to that level.
I do believe people when they say my Ex is a knob. I just wonder what the opinion of the ex is of them. I also think it is irrelevant.

I am not a legal professional, but I don’t think abuse has to be “proved” for a court to protect a child.

So to be clear, you think that the court can take someone’s word for it, when there has been no conviction?

Nope.

And even then, you haven’t answered what would happen to children who haven’t yet spoken about their abuse. How can the court protect them if no one knows? If all they have is the child saying they don’t want to see the parent, that will be painted as PA.

I am not a legal professional, but I don’t think abuse has to be “proved” for a court to protect a child.

You are wrong.

I was told by solicitors if it made it to court, given the previous "proved" PAS ex would probably get contact. This was despite in excess of 5 separate welfare concerns reported to SS by different agencies. Three of those involved the kids reporting physical abuse, one if which supported by injury.

Oh and the PAS was me telling SS he was and would go on hurting his children given he had shown no concern for their welfare by his past actions

You seem hopelessly naive