Parental Alienation

[fatoldandbroke]

There is currently an open petition to introduce a law that recognises Parental Alienation as a criminal offence, that seems to be gaining some momentum. 6500 signatures and the government has to respond at 10000 signatures. This form of abuse affects Mums, Dads, Step parents, Grandparents and wider family.
Rather depressingly, twice as many people have signed a petition asking for a law to protect brown hares!?!
Hopefully this link will work, but I am a computer biff so if it doesn't please could someone who knows what they are doing post it?
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/249833

Im not signing this.

My ex thinks that his son won't see him as I'm alienating him from our son. Wrong. Ds is a stubborn and intelligent lad who couldn't be brainwashed (without force) if you tried. He can explain why he doesn't want to see his Dad.

The problem is that not all kids are eloquent. This may be because they are young, shy or don't have the ability to express themselves. If my kids were interviewed by CAFCASS I think that it would be hard for them as the person is a stranger and they'd feel awkward painting an accurate picture of their Dad so would probably tone reality down.

This would lead to more children sent to their abuser as the parent is scared of being accused of PAS. "I'll accuse you of PAS" will become an abusive cliche like "I'll stop paying" "I'll stop you seeing the kids" I think it shows that you're not familiar with separation and divorce. People like drug users and abusers of the other parent get contact (no punishment from court) so making this criminal will end up a law that's barely enforced. Do you know that there's NRP who owe £10,000+ in maintenance but not in jail?

Have to agree - it is far too complex. I taught my DCs to be polite and kind when with their DF and his new DP.
they hated with justification the new DP1.

EX saw that as me, alienating and feeding them crap about her and him. I did not , nor would have done - they alienated the DCS all by themselves. Circa 6 weekends per year, odd days of contact 1/2 per month on a good day, no holidays, no days out and slagging me off.Not once did i malign them. Tempted often but never did.

To criminalise this would be so complex.

Many have posted about their children’s needs. Others like myself have posted about their experiences as abused children

I just wanted to say thank you for your posts to those who posted their experiences, even though it was not my thread. The situation I have causes me much anxiety and often insomnia. It has been helpful to read your experiences, even though obviously I am very sorry you had them.

I appreciate the OP also acknowledging the situation is more complex and needs more consideration than they originally gave it.

I am glad you realise now OP that this is more complex.
My DD has wondered aloud what his ex wife said to their kids that has ensured none of them want anything to do with him now they are adults. Even as a child I could see that he made absolutely no effort to see them at all, and when they visited he totally ignored them. Hardly surprising that as adults they are not interested in seeing him.

As PPs have said, it’s so common for absent dads to claim parental alienation when the reality is that they can’t be arsed to be part of their DCs life because they’ve moved on. It’s much easier to justify their crap behaviour by alleging parental alienation. I’m all for a law to prevent PA if genuine situations, but would just question whether it’s as widespread as absent dads would have us believe.

I won’t sign this, for the reasons many posters have explained so eloquently. "I'll accuse you of PAS" will become an abusive cliche

OP - it has raised a lot of valid points - thanks for posting. Sensible debate and experiences coming out which makes everyone on both sides of the debate think their view.

I have given this matter a great deal of consideration. I have also consulted a number of professionals, who seem to have expertise in the area of family separation. I have spoken face to face with Father's who are seperated from the Mother of their children. I have spoken face to face with Mother's who are separated from the Father of their children, in the full knowledge that I may not like what they have to say.
I am horrified to hear about some of the cases explained here and I can understand the opposition to such legislation. I am also horrified by what seems to be a general assumption that Father's are abusers and Mother's are protectors. There is abundant evidence available contradicting that notion.
I think I have tried to be quite measured and neutral in my posts. Maybe I didn't manage that?
It is clear that the manipulation of children can and does happen. It is clear that this type of behaviour by a parent is abusive. It is clear that when this abusive behaviour is detected and proved to a court, there is no punitive measure available to that court to deal with the abuser.
We should all be protecting children from any form of abuse.
Parental alienation remains as a form of child abuse that the law does not protect children from and that should horrify us ALL!!!

Lose of custody of a child isnt punitive enough? Jail for failing to hand over the child not punitive enough for you?

9229 signature's.......................

Sorry, I meant 9239 signatures.................

It exists. It is also raised by shitty fathers who are so unreliable and inconsistent that their children won’t see them anymore to hide the reality that the children aren’t stupid and have simply drawn this conclusion alone. Sometimes it is a mix of the two. It would be completely impossible for the police to investigate and prove to a criminal standard.

The current position is that in an application for contact, it can be raised by the father in the context of long and drawn out proceedings where the behaviour of both parents and the reaction of the children can be observed and monitored. Ultimately, if the court finds there is PAS, a residence order can be granted to the father. This automatically filters out the feckless idiots who just can’t be arsed. It’s hard to argue and would be almost impossible for a litigant in person to successfully raise IMO. A better use of state resources would be more legal aid available to fathers seeking contact rather than criminalizing this offense. It’s barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry GreenEggsHamandchips, I didn't answer your question.
No, I don't think the loss of residence, which some mother's seem to think is their entitlement, is punitive enough for a child abuser.
Imprisonment is an option for the court to deal with a parent who does not obtemper a court order and is not relevant to this discussion.

Your responses clearly show your allegiance OP.

I don't think there is any allegiance to discuss here.
The protection of children from emotional and/or psychological abuse should be a concern for everyone.

9325 signatures.
Maybe people think that children are as important as brown hares???

It seems np have to wait for serious damage to be done to the dc mental health first before it's even allowed to be mentioned. Also that a np has to put up with the constant crap and concerns from the rp to prove they should be allowed to see their dc.

We have a country full of depression people who once were children that were never properly heard.
Mothers with hold contact for themselves
Dads with hold money for themselves

Both doesn't happen in every relationship but it is used against the other.

Pa should be looked at and there should be more done about it, just like rp who say that their ex was ea, which is being used constantly now to.

There is absolutely no doubt that PA exists and it goes on. It’s child abuse and mostly mothers are the perpetrators (according to US research). Makes sense as most RP are mothers.

This is a useful test:

Am I a Parental Alienator?
Please answer unconditionally, YES or NO

1. Have I ever criticized or spoken negatively about the other parent or his/her family or friends in front of my child or where the child can hear me?

1. Have I ever forced my child to choose between loving the other parent and me?

1. Do I talk about child support, money, or legal issues in front of my child?

1. Do I ever limit time with the other parent because I feel I am the best parent?

1. Do I ask the child to keep secrets, lie or hide things from the other parent?

1. Do I pump my child to get detailed information of where they go and what they do when they are with the other parent?

1. Do I ever prevent the child from speaking with the other parent by blocking phone messages, not returning phone calls, erasing email messages, not giving them mail or gifts?

1. Do I interrupt the child’s time with the other parent by calling too much or planning activities during their time together?

1. Do I deny my child the right to spend the designated time with the other parent?

10. Have I ever sabotaged any activity that my child is doing with the other parent?

11. Do I encourage my child to blame the other parent or to choose sides?

12. Do I use my child as a therapist or my special friend to share my deep and upsetting emotions?

13. Do I let my child know that I feel badly when he/she has a good time with the other parent?

14. Do I ask my child to spy for me while with the other parent?

15. Do I ever instill guilt, pressure, or rejection of the other parent in my child?

16. Do I make a contest of how much love, care, and attention the child gives to the other parent and his or her family and friends versus how much attention I receive?

17. Have you ever made false accusations, such as implying drug abuse or inappropriate sexual behavior to the police or Department of Child and Family Services?

18. Do I stop my child from expressing his/her feelings whether I agree with them or not? (e.g., love, happiness, excitement, anger, fear, sadness)

If you answered "YES" to any of these questions, you need to evaluate to what extent you are engaging in parental alienation. Children need to be free to love both parents. If you don’t like the other parent or feel that they are inappropriate for your child, you need to solve the problem without resorting to destroying that child’s relationship with this parent. Your child can make up his or her own mind about how much they love or even like the other parent without being unduly influenced by you. Obsessed parent alienators will stop at nothing to damage or even severe a child’s relationship with a parent. This is a serious form of child abuse where a child is not allowed to have loving feelings for his parent, or his or her extended family and friends. These people represent half of the child’s heritage. Most parents "slip up" once in a while, however, parents who really care about their child’s best interest will do all they can to keep their child out of the middle and allow them to love both parents.

My OHs EW is a YES to 16 out of 18 of those questions.

I look forward to the government stepping up and stopping this abusive behaviour because until they do the courts will just give these abusers a slap in the wrist.

This is just going to give abusive NRPs another stick to beat the RPs with.

My teen doesnt want to see his Dad this weekend. He definitely knows his own mind and absolutely nothing to do with me. I have plans this weekend so it would be highly inconvenient if he doesn't go.

His Dad has form for claiming PAS and he has very deep pockets for legal expenses. I don't have enough faith in the system to judge this correctly. If my dc was younger would he be believed?

I just think we need to listen to children, if they claim the other parent is violent, angry or makes them uncomfortable why arent they heard?? Put the responsibility back on the parent to change their behaviour rather than blame the other parent or ignore the child.

There is no point in criminalising it, this like criminalising Stockholm syndrome.

Personally, every time I have heard a parent complaining about parental alienation, I have also seen in the person complaining that they have a problem to regulate their emotions, can be neglectful, hurtful, violent on occasion and more frequently, not that bothered in building a good relationship with the kids, so I am not sure enough their children’s wish to stay away is completely the work of the ex. So I wouldn’t be signing a petition to force kids into unwelcome contact even if they have been brainwashed by the other parent. This just makes things more difficult for already troubled kids.

By the way, child maintenance is NOT heavily regulated by the government. If a parent chose not to pay, nobody will be looking at the case with a magnifying glass... they would just let it be: let the parent accumulate arrears until the resident parent gets tired and stop chasing the payments.

I’m thinking of renaming this thread to “irrelevant things people have to say about child protection”.
This thread is not about mothers, fathers, child maintenance, domestic abuse, family court, societal expectations, the CMS, the DWP, mediation, whether your former partner is a knob or not, child arrangement orders, obtemper of an order, enforcement of court orders etc. etc. etc.
It is very simple. If you feel that the damaging manipulation of children should be discouraged and punished if it is investigated and proven, sign the petition.
If you feel that child abuse is too complicated to deal with, don’t sign the petition.
Everyone else, have a Coke, have a smile and shut the fuck up!

10290 signatures.
At least 10290 people are interested in protecting children from abusive behaviour, instead of levering their own selfish agendas. QED.

So please explain how you intend to investigate, without causing (potentially further) damage to children? Outline what you consider an appropriate punishment? Why is it a ‘selfish agenda’ to want to discuss PAS within the same thread and context as the none payment of maintenance given that that too is child abuse?

Not going to happen.

The law has only recently changed after long consultation stopping 'parental alienation' being used as a stick to beat victims of DV with after separation.

I imagine this petition is a desperate attempt by Fathers4Justice etc to try and claw back said stick so they can convince the criminal courts to use it where the family courts no longer will.

Hopefully Women's Aid et al are already on it.