Teacher carrying 9yo into school.

[ChitterChatter1987]

My eldest daughter (Year 5) is becoming really tricky to get into school some days, particularly Mondays.
She has a male teacher for the first time this year, who she seems to get on well with and speaks positively about.She had specifically asked to have him despite often generally being abit more fearful of males than females.He is popular with kids and parents and is fairly young and laid back, quite playful and enthusiastic in his approach.

A couple of times he has come out when we have had issues getting her in recently and has verbally managed to persuade DD to go in by giving an incentive etc which has worked well, but today despite him trying this and offering good solutions to her worries, she just would not go in, and went outside the office reception and sat down refusing to move.
He suggested out of earshot for me to go as maybe me being there was making her more reluctant, which i agree was probably true as maybe then she thinks she might be able to come home.

I walked off up the path and left him negotiating with her outside as he had advised, however then looked back and saw him fireman carrying her into the building.
Now I totally get it's a hard sitiation knowing how to get her in,and appreciate he has a class to teach, so can't stand outside negotiating with her for ages, and there is a possibility she was okay with him lifting her in and it was a fun game (although I would be surprised as she isn't really a tactile child with anyone other than me and sometimes her dad and sister) If someone had done that with my 5yo, unless she was kicking and screaming in upset, I probably wouldn't think much of it tbh, but with her being older on the cusp of puberty, him being male, and also her having ASD and not liking physical touch, it just feels like it might be quite humiliating for her and abit forceful and inappropriate, despite it being meant as a playful gesture to get her to go in.
We always try to teach her body autonomy, that nobody should touch her including hugs etc without her wanting them to, so i just worry that this is going against that, especially with him being an adult male.
She is quite a young 9.5, and fairly small for her age, so not sure he would have done it otherwise, but despite that she is still the age she is.

My plan is I will speak to her later and see if she was okay with it or not, and if not ask for a meeting with school, asking them to not do it again and discussing alternative methods to get her into school.

What are others thoughts on this practice? If anyone else has experienced something similar, or has any ideas of alternative ways to get her into school i would be grateful for your input!

How come I get a post deleted for saying my child with sen has more empathy and asking for said person to help take the Autism and Anxiety away as they clearly know more then my childs professionals.
As apparently thats a personal attack.
But there allowed to attack the whole send community?

Good job it wasn't against her will then eh?

There is no training that allows a teacher to use a fireman’s lift to get a pupil into a class. This teacher has had no training in the use of reasonable force or has completely ignored any training he has had.

OP ignore the comments that have either completely missed the points you’re making, or who clearly have no understanding of ESBA.

My DS7 was carried in to class by his teacher today. He was highly anxious about a school trip which he was looking forward to but also worried about. She opened up her arms and offered a hug then lifted him during the hug and walked in like that. He had an amazing day. It all felt positive, reassuring and appropriate in the moment.

But I can completely see the difference when you take age, gender, permission etc all into account. The dynamics can be very different and the child needs to be ok with it or it will be counterproductive and increase their worries. And it does become inappropriate at some stage…. not because of intent but because in a fireman’s lift you’re holding the legs, if wearing a skirt it can expose too much etc.

I can see entirely your various reasons for querying it and for thinking it’s not really sustainable or appropriate, even if DD didn’t really seem to mind.

I work in a school and we do have pupils that are sometimes very difficult to get into school but absolutely no way would a member of staff be allowed to pick a child up and carry them into school. It’s a safeguarding. issue and would be dealt with severely. It the child won’t come in and the teacher has a class to look after then he/she would ask a TA to watch the child or a member of the admin staff (me!) to help.

I see a child similar to your sons age, maybe a little younger be carried in every morning when I'm waiting for my son's support to collect him to go through to class. He is often missing his shoes and it is the deputy head who carries him through.

His parent is right there so I assume they don't have an issue with it. Seeing it every morning, I had no idea it was so frowned upon in seemingly a lot of schools.

This will bite you on the ass one day. Your daughter's anxiety surrounding school is telling you something - listen to it. Interpret it and read it. She is struggling with the environment. Even if she can't describe or label what it is or why, her anxiety is there. This is not naughty behaviour. We need to stop normalising man handling anxious kids into a Victorian school system. Especially neurodiverse kids. Look up the FB group Not Fine in School. Make an appt with your school's sendco to discuss this, try and pinpoint what it is that she is struggling with (it really could be that the teacher is male, no matter how much she likes him) and address it. Ask for reasonable adjustments. If you continue to force your child into school without making changes this will escalate and eventually school will be a no go altogether. And this will have wider effects on you and your family (and put you at risk of fines etc) Genuinely, if you do nothing and carry on forcing her you will regret this one day. When we know better, we do better. Speaking from experience.

I understand that worked for your son today and he had a good day but that shouldn’t have happened either. Teachers should not be picking children up full stop. He came to her for a hug, that’s positive but what she should have then done was encourage him to walk into class with her by holding his hand or with an arm around his shoulders not by carrying him. If that develops into a habit you will have a much harder time breaking that and he is only going to get physically bigger and stronger.

I just don't want my daughters to grow up thinking that it is okay for anyone (especially males) to dominate them physically against their will, even if done in jest.

I agree with this as a general rule, but IMO it's not a fair representation of this particular situation. Because it's nothing like him picking her up because HE wanted to do something. It was because she was refusing to go into school, which is obligatory - and it is the parents' legal responsibility to get the child into school, not the teacher's.

So you are fixating on her right not to be touched, but not on her right to an education, and on your responsibility to ensure that she gets this education by getting to school on time, and is amenable to instructions given by the teacher(s).

If she refuses to follow instructions, at what stage should the school just call you and tell you to deal with her? Because if you complain to the school, I expect that's what will happen.

It seems like an impossible situation for both OP and school. OP can't just let her daughter miss school, that's against the law. But she can't get her to go in. School can't leave her sitting outside, but they can't force her to go in.

School doesn't need to be criticised for trying their best - of course picking her up was far from ideal, but definitely seems well intentioned. OP doesn't need to be criticised for trying her best.

Year 5 is a tricky year - they are moving towards secondary, trying to be grown up whilst still also wanting to play like younger children. Lines are drawn between the 'cool girls' and the others, friendships becomes more fixed and defined. My oldest is year 6 now, and the past year was tough for her, despite her being bright, sporty, sociable. OP I wonder if the friendship issues are a main driver here, and if anything else the school can do to support around this, and you. Do you invite other girls around, sleepovers etc often start at this age. Does she do any extra curriculars such as brownies/guides to build up confidence and widen friendship opportunities?

A few years ago we happened to be on a bus in fairly rural part of France. It pullled up outside a Primary school and a young person in jeans and T shirt ( teacher) waved off a couple of kids who got on the bus.
No clubs, no tantrums, no nothing.

What would constitute reasonable adjustments in this case, do you think?

Absolutely - the judgment you have to live with is the worst, and it comes from everywhere, even your own loved ones. Reading these threads reminds me that these opinions are widely held and it makes it very hard to know who to trust and what people privately think.

There are countless reasons why this seems to be so much worse than it was 'back in our day' - the school system is completely different so it's like comparing apples and oranges, the focus on attendance much greater than it was and we have better understanding that 'school refusal' if we have to call it that if people find EBSA too much of a word salad - is actually almost always down to unmet needs, due to SEND and/or other complex and often interacting reasons. But people want to talk about what it takes away from others and disabled children are an easy target.

No wonder teachers are leaving the profession, having to deal with this nonsense. Poor sod.

So the daughter was sitting on the floor and refusing to move? She MUST have consented to the fireman’s lift. It would be very difficult to pick up even a small child from a sitting position and transfer into to over the shoulder if there was any resistance.

As others have said — probably unwise of the teacher and unsustainable but on this occasion it worked.

The reasons for the school refusal would probably bear deeper inquiry.

I agree @MumofMaskers. I am very glad we are no longer in the UK because I dread to think what would have happened to my dc if the attitude on this thread is standard.

I haven’t read the whole thread. My son doesn’t have any neurodiverse assessments although I’ve always suspected something mild. However he always struggled with going into school and the change in dynamic, noise etc. As a small child he struggled to go into class but you could usually persuade him /gently push him in. When he started year 5 he started refusing to go into school, standing in the playground and refusing to go through the door, threatening to run off etc. it wasn’t all the time but some of the time, and you could feel his mood spiralling down on the journey to school. Sometimes you could get him up again but mostly not. The headteacher / SEN lead often had to get involved. it was awful and so upsetting. There was no way we could manhandle him or pick him up, and he would have been awful if we’d tried. I had meetings with his teachers and tried to resolve some issues he had with the teacher and what she did in class, which helped. But what really helped was him going to the playground next to school on his own, before school, for around 20 mins. He would meet friends and then go in with them. Mornings are completely different now. Now he gets himself ready for school and heads out the door. It gives him the freedom and he really enjoys it.
That might not work for you or your daughter, but maybe thinking of a different routine in the morning, walking to school with a friend, going to breakfast club, something that isn’t stressing her out at the door?

It makes me very uncomfortable to imagine this and I think it's the "fireman's lift" in specific that involves the bum being right next to the face. Seems like a totally inappropriate type of carry.

I think a lot of posters have been really unfair and don't have a clue about school avoidance or having a child with an additional need.
At my DDs school they had a TA who used to run a girls group for girls who had social difficulties, it was one lunchtime a week and about 4 girls. I don't know if your DDs school run anything similar as it did help with her confidence, so it might be worth asking.
I know there was only one member of staff who could get my DD in to school (the same TA) so I understand that. You would need the school to agree but would your DD find it easier going to the classroom 5 minutes early as that's something else we did.
The carrying isn't ideal but I guess he felt he had to get back to the class and your DD did say it was okay. I know it's really hard and I do feel for you and your DD.

I would guess she is cagey because she feels little embarressed that you saw her getting a fireman's carry even if she was giggling and laughing and agreed. Just pre teen parental embarrassment

The school I work in this would be a big NO and a disciplinary matter for the teacher. Under no circumstances are we to 'man handle' a child into school. Please arrange a meeting with the head and SENCO asap to discuss.
With school refusers the parent sits with them (yes all day if necessary!) until they are comfortable enough to come in. A member of staff checks on them every 10mins, they are provided with work, games etc. We currently have 4 and this method is working well for them and their coming in time is getting closer to the normal start time of 8:45.

Could she just be a bit embarrassed about it, she seems to have taken a real shine to this teacher, could she have a bit of a 'crush'?

I don’t think he should have done it, but equally he couldn’t stand there debating with her all day. It’s up to the mother to get her into class.

It was my interpretation of what we discussed at the time & looks like I was wrong in many respects. There is so much chat about never so much as putting a comforting hand on a shoulder its no wonder people get confused.

That really depends on what is the cause of the child's anxiety. My son's school have done home visits to build up a good relationship with him. We have taken a gradual approach and we are building up time in school. They have created a space he can 'escape' to when it becomes overwhelming (which is really a desk in a quiet space with some favourite games and themes on, a snack box as he has arfid, some home comforts) they use pictoral prompts, explanations for learning, and visual communication with him to help him understand and communicate. He doesn't even have to speak to communicate his needs - he can point to what he needs. They will be doing 1:1 sessions with him for learning, facilitating 1:1 sessions with other children to help him forge friendships on a smaller scale and help his communication and confidence. Speech and language sessions with a salt therapist. They recognise transistions are difficult for him so he is allowed additional time to move between activities, he is given additional 'warnings' of change in activities and they use a visual timetable. When/if he doss eventually stay in for lunch, he will not eat in thw dinner hall with everyone else. Loads of adjustments in a mainstream school there, but tailored to my son and his particular difficulties. So, staff and parents need to get their heads together for their daughter before it gets worse, and make some changes. My niece, also autistic, does naturally seem to have a preference for women and there doesn't seem to be any particular reason. The yr 6 teacher in her primary was male (a young male teacher who was also very popular with students) but she was absolutely dreading being put in his class (she wasn't in the end). Maybe men are more intimidating at that age. So I do think there could be something in that.