This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

Unfortunately as things currently stand someone's needs have to be sacrificed or put on the bottom of the heap, and I don't think it should be women's.

That's why I won't be called cis and why I am so angry with MN right now. There was talk of MN supporting a dv campaign. But it would ring false now because they seem to only care about women when it's safe or easy or paints them in a good light.

All for gender neutral toilets

Was at a venue which had them once

Men and women in the queue when a man (who had obviously not seen the men in the queue ...just the women) went striding to the front and was turned back by a security guard

"Welcome to my fucking world MATE!!!!)

And yes i am not wanting gender neutral toilets to help any trans people...just to piss men off mwah, ha, fucking, ha!!

Really need to back away from the Drambuie

And yes i am not wanting gender neutral toilets to help any trans people...just to piss men off

I hate queues. It makes me feel very very very self conscious and I will avoid queuing if possible. I just want to get in and out.

I am with you there ego

Night Helen

pass us some drambui rufus
I've got whiskey if you fancy a rusty nail

You use womens facilities if you 'pass' as seemed to work so well? Was this really such an issue that it needed to end this way? I am actually so fucking angry right now its unbelievable. And down to fucking men who dislike women having their own rights...again. Just under a different guise. If I was transsexual I would be fucking mad too at this. Everything seemed...fine before this bollocks.

And if i cant say that someone who says" suck my lady dick" or who uses their PENIS to rape someone is a man then i am honestly done on mumsnet

It's deeply anti-woman to let them get away with it.

Absolutely. And this kind of view and behaviour is a world away from a person with developing breasts who should not have to change in a male changing room. And what about the safety of that person in a trans changing room with some of the individuals whose tweets I've read, who would define as TW.

It's the extremism, the language, the behaviour that is inexcusable and needs to be challenged.

Best thing ( I think) is where theres womens, mens and neutral so blokes can still have their urinals. Of course, providing these options doesnt ensure that some dickhead wont make an inappropriate choice.

Unisex toilets near me seem to work well too. Easier for families, people with carers as well, and the central washbasin bit is open to the main drag so they feel very safe. They are in a pop-up place, sort of a hipster wooden shack, so could be put up pretty quickly and cheaply I guess, at least in some city centres? I think some secondary schools have gone for having separate unisex cubicles off the main corridors.

I didn't mind sharing loos with transwomen (I assume) before all this blew up (but I understand why some women do), but now it feels a bit like I am being asked to deny rational thought or biological truth, rather than just being live and let live, if that makes sense?

Err... I go away for the day and this discussion seems to have gone backwards!

But, for me to really class you as a woman, this would mean not having a penis and such.

Excuse me, but when was any of this about penises?!

Horny are you seriously suggesting that so long as a man chops his penis off we should all ignore biological FACT, forget all about chromosomes and just accept his demand that we pretend he's a woman?

No way. That's not how this should be working. Chromosomes are chromosomes and fact is fact. You are what you are born and no amount of surgery, hormones, make-up or denial (on all accounts) turns a man in to a woman or a woman into a man.

Be how you want to be. Do with yourself what you want. But continuing with the idea that sex is a choice does nothing but validate damaging gender stereotypes.

Horny are you seriously suggesting that so long as a man chops his penis off we should all ignore biological FACT, forget all about chromosomes and just accept his demand that we pretend he's a woman?

I am not suggesting anyone forget about anything at all. I thought I made that clear that this is simply MY personal view. I even followed it up with 'not everyone agrees' and such and that I understand if they disagree.

One last post to leave you with before I go to sleep.

The toilet debate has never really been about transwomen in female toilets. It's about letting men into women's toilets purely on the basis of self identity.

Elizabeth Hungerford and Cathy Brennan (who have both been vilified and abused by TRAs) have done some great work on how things could be legislated in a way that could protect from this.

The full letter to the UN can be found here.

sexnotgender.com/gender-identity-legislation-and-the-erosion-of-sex-based-legal-protections-for-females/

Specifically subnote 30:

[xxx] We fully support anti-discrimination protections for transgender and transsexual people that do not run rough-shod over laws that protect females. We support the following definition of “gender identity” – a person’s identification with the sex opposite her or his physiology or assigned sex at birth, which can be shown by providing evidence including, but not limited to, medical history, care or treatment of a transsexual medical condition, or related condition, as deemed medically necessary by the American Medical Association.” Such a definition would protect the classification of sex, while simultaneously providing a cause of action for discriminatory practices on the basis of a persistent and documented “gender identity.” We welcome people who fit into this definition into space segregated by sex in recognition of their perceived need for access and in the fervent hope that we can achieve such protection for identifiably transgender or transsexual people without harming females.

'class you as a woman' to me..means treat you exactly as I would treat another woman too. Not that I necessarily agree that you are indeed a woman..biologically.

Basically I would have no issue classing a fully transitioned MtF transsexual person as a women. I agree that you can never change your actual sex no matter what surgeries and such. Others disagree that they should be treat as women. I understand that too.

Well, thank goodness for that.

Out of (genuine) interest. Why is that your personal view?

X post horny

Apologies, I thought I had made my position clear throughout the threads..and even if only this thread is read, in just this one too

Thanks for that link, Helen. I found this line interesting and wonder whether this argument has been taken further legally?: "We believe that “gender identity” laws that codify the notion that there are traits, manners of expression, or modes of appearance that are inconsistent or consistent with one’s biological sex violates United Nations conventions seeking to eradicate sex stereotyping".

I would hope I treat everyone I meet the same, regardless of sex. Or, least, I treat them as seems appropriate based on our interactions.

As for sex specific spaces and services then quite frankly I would like to see biological fact adhered to.

If men who want to be feminine don't feel safe in men-only spaces then that is a gender and social issue that needs addressing. Allowing those men to use female only spaces seems to me to be a lost opportunity to fix the real problem.

Fugg - not me. I am still of the 'no matter what you do to yourself a man cannot become a woman' and that women's protected spaces are for women. Not for subgroups of men.

Personally, I wouldn't care about sharing a bog with Miranda or Helen. Or with some gay men I know. Or with some straight men I know. But that';s because I am who I am and they are who they are. But law has to be broad bushstroke and not based on people's personalities and them not being a twat (to borrow from an earlier post). (And the correlation between 'nice and harmless' and 'genuine TW' is by no means a given. TW are TW just like anyone else and I refuse to believe they are incapable of being threatening arses just like the members of any other group are.)

And it's not just about bogs, is it? So you are OK with sharing the bog with a 'genuine TW' who has had the chop? What about a communal changing room? That OK? What about a hospital ward? A prison? A rape crisis centre? What does your acceptance consist of? That they don;t have a working penis? Well, then what about a completely impotent man, that OK? That they aren't interested in you sexually? Well, what about gay men then? And does that mean that you exclude lesbians? (And where the hell are bisexuals supposed to go?!?!) Is it because they 'pass'? So are butch women to be excluded? There are MTT who have not had 'bottom surgery' who do a bloody good job of passing.... are they OK?

How are far does 'treating them as a woman' go? What does that mean anyway? Socially? Legally? Who have to use the required pronoun???

Possibly you had horny. I've not read all 2000+ posts. (I think in this instance it's OK to relax the usual RTFT rules )

if the cap fits

Dammit i wish i had thought of that earlier...i do love a rusty nail (although i think its a wasts of my "expensive " whiskey , must put a cheaper bottle in my shopping)

*TW are PEOPLE just like anyone else.... (sorry - tired)

Oscar if I wasn't so tired that would have been exactly what I would have said.

Once subjectivity is allowed in, that's when it all goes belly up.

That's as eloquent as I can manage at this time of night!

What does 'classing someone as a woman' mean?
Surely, either they are a woman, or they are not?

Agree with oscar