This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

I'm just place marking, this is such an important discussion & I don't want to miss what's being said. I don't have much to contribute at the moment but I'm reading & learning. So thanks to all who are discussing this in such an open & respectful manor.

The mods are probably wishing the Ada Wells thing hadn't gone thermonuclear before a bank holiday

I bet there's a lot of being drunk

Taking my 22:40:29 post a little further, to include a 'fully transitioned' trans woman. I personally would class said transwoman as a woman. By me accepting this, I have no issue treating her exactly as I would any other woman. She 'lives as a woman', clearly actually identifies as a woman and due to transitioning has pretty much the same anatomy as a woman does. I would be uncomfortable, and entirely against expecting a fully transitioned woman to share 'male only' areas instead of either having a separate option for themselves or using female spaces.

My issue on this is, and always has been the 'identifying and therefor am' part of the trans-umbrella. I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

I also do think we need to learn more about trans people and figure out if it is actually more psychological, which I suspect does play a role in a lot of cases. However, to do this will take time..and I have absolutely no issue with in the meantime, continuing to treat transexualism with surgery and hormones if the recipient is 100% sure that that is what they want and it would make them happy. NHS needs to better understand the condition though, from what I have read today, before they can successfully 'treat' in any way.

I also disagree totally with ANY option of hormones, surgery, or even counselling for children that would..or has the potential to push them in the direction of believing they are trans. This is a hard one for me as I don't want any child to suffer, but I fully believe that lining them up for treatments they most likely do not actually need, is wrong. I think my stance on this is the following. It is better to 'treat' children who think they are in the wrong body by allowing them to express themselves in whichever way they feel 'right' doing. Also if needed, to reinforce the view that if this is about attraction, it is fine to be attracted to members of the same sex. When they are adult enough to understand the implications of the decision, THEN give them the option of the transitioning route. before that, it should never be mentioned as even an option.

I do not know how others would view this, I speak solely from a personal perspective.

That's the issue Oscar. Follow logic and either anyone who says they are a woman is a woman (and woman is reduced to an essence or soul). Or biology rules and only people born female are women.
I don't actually think that works for most people, most people are happy to accept that people who feel like they are women,want to present as women and live viewed as women should be treated like women. But unfortunately the current TRA narrative and political changes force us to take a polarized view. And lots of people will come down one the side if biology as its a tangible thing.

Oscar I hear what you say and it's so tricky it's almost like Ego/Helen/Miranda et al should be having a separate discussion about whether feeling like a TW means you are a TW

The whole dysphoria thing is feeling restless with ones self and sense of being. Presumably that means that whatever sex you are, you are not going to feel like that is you. Almost like an ODD disorder, but against ones own actual being. Whatever/whoever you are, you don't feel like it's right, more that you are the opposing side of what you assess yourself to be.

That's a good description. Even though i rationally know that I'm a male and could never know what it feels like to be female, I feel much happier and honest and able to be open now than I ever did living as a bloke.

I know that this is really counter intuitive, but I really felt like a fraud before. I had to try really hard to modify my behaviours before to try to fit in as a man. Now I'm just me.

Agree with aguycalled helen

I am angry about actual men ie my husband (who isnt trans but i am trying to find an example MNHQ wont delete) deciding for various nefarious reasons to call himself a woman

As opposed to an actual trans woman who for whatever reasons honestly believes that they are in the "wrong body"

And i am happy to refer to that trans woman as "she" and i personally dont have an issue with them in the loo (although i completely understand why someone might have an an issue)

But honestly can MNHQ not see a difference between ego or helen or the transwomen who frequent a few of our local "ladies" clothes stores and the absolute fuckwits who have no intention of doing anything even vaguely "womanly" they are just taking the piss

And if i cant say that someone who says" suck my lady dick" or who uses their PENIS to rape someone is a man then i am honestly done on mumsnet

(Although it is going to make the book swap a bit difficult )

a separate discussion about whether feeling like a TW means you are a TW

OMG YES. That really should be a thing!

And just in case that post gets deleted and i throw my toys out of the pram can i just say to ego and helen

I hope everything works out for you both, you sound awesome

Awesome!!!! Now i sound 12!!!!

I am backing away from the Drambuie (after this last glass)

And if i cant say that someone who says" suck my lady dick" or who uses their PENIS to rape someone is a man then i am honestly done on mumsnet

This is EXACTLY the point MNHQ.

Some TRA's are vile misogynists who are abusive to women and get away with it because they claim the protection of the trans umbrella and everybody is shit scared of being labelled transphobic.

It's not OK for these people to behave like this and to be influencing the way that women, and organisations and governments organise themselves or behave.

It's deeply anti-woman to let them get away with it.

I've had a pretty busy time and have been catching up with this

Thank you all, massively important stuff being spoken about here. I'll bet that there's loads of lurkers taking on board what's being said.

Back to where the line should be drawn regarding female only spaces..I have no option but to go with the following, taking everyones feelings into account, including that of rape survivors, survivors of domestic abuse perpetrated by men and such. If you have a penis, you cannot go in.

This leaves the issue of trans women who still have a penis being forced to share 'male' spaces while feeling uncomfortable as they look and maybe are, 'feminine' in every other aspect except that they have a penis.

Rather than forcing this person into womens spaces and ignoring their protests..we need to create a further 'safe space' for people who are kinda..hovering inbetween male and female...for want of a better word. This could be in the form of a seperate area, kinda like a disabled loo is added onto normal loos. As for refuges and such, again, penis = no. But again, it is entirely possible to be inclusive and create places for the people who do not feel comfortable with other 'men' to go where they can escape and feel safe.

I believe, this is the best option all round. But again, welcome discussion as to why people think this would be wrong.

If you have a penis, you cannot go in.

But you cannot possibly install a penis detector at the entrance of every female space...

For me the root problem is this "identifying as a woman".

Because that's just nonsense, isn't it?

There's no hive mind package that comes with your vulva.

And even if there was, how could you possibly identify with it??

I can't 'identify' as something I have absolutely no experience of.

So for me, without wanting to be insulting or cause upset to anyone who is just trying to live in peace, I don't understand how you could make the choice to be a transwoman without buying into the gender stereotyping, misogynistic bullshit that is rampant in society.

And that's without even touching on the problems already being discussed by women far more eloquent and knowledgeable than me.

Can I just say how wonderful it is to actually be having respectful, nuanced conversation about these things without it descending into to a big fight.

Thank you all.

Exactly Helen . Why should you share an umbrella with someone who'd happily see you get drenched in a rainstorm, or take the umbrella from you completely?

I'll be honest and say I don't want to get involved in that debate about changing rooms and safe spaces. I can see the issues from all sides and it's not that clear cut. I have been burnt too many times on here in the past and I don't honestly think it's possible to have a discussion that doesn't get nasty.

Maybe helen will.

But you cannot possibly install a penis detector at the entrance of every female space...

That's a godawful sentence, but I know what you mean (and no, you don't mean chastity belts)

So for me, without wanting to be insulting or cause upset to anyone who is just trying to live in peace, I don't understand how you could make the choice to be a transwoman without buying into the gender stereotyping, misogynistic bullshit that is rampant in society.

Really great question and not upsetting at all. Firstly I don't think that anyone who experiences dysphoria chooses to be a transwoman at all. Frankly it's shit and nobody would choose it. I'm not asserting that it's biological, it may well be psychological (there isn't enough research to be conclusive) but it's still something that happens to us rather than something we choose.

I think that we all buy into the damaging stereotypes whether we like it or not. We have to live in a society that reinforces it every day. Even if we are critical of it, we are still influenced by it.

I know that the phrase "identifying as a woman" is used a lot but it's a really meaningless phrase. How could we?

chastity belts

{spits wine all over keyboard}

But you cannot possibly install a penis detector at the entrance of every female space...

I understand that. And what a sentence to boot

But like everything else I guess, we would just have to assume that people would follow said rules and if they are caught not doing so, consequences arise. I mean, at the moment, there is no way of realistically keeping a guy out of a womens changing room..we just assume they will stay out, but they could enter..undetected even..and noone would realistically know unless he started helicoptering his dick in the middle of a room of half naked women.

I'll be honest and say I don't want to get involved in that debate

The problem is there shouldn't really be a debate. Folk should use the spaces they and the other occupants are most comfortable with. I don't know if the TW I know have had bottom surgery, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be found helicoptering their penis in a womens changing room. A decent person is empathetic to others. This was said on another thread but my DP is the same - won't walk close to a woman at night in case he makes her feel vulnerable. I'm pretty sure the TW on this thread are the same.

The problem is these people who declare it is their right, without any consideration for others?

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW?

Frankly it's shit and nobody would choose it

It's not something you choose. It's the hand we've been dealt and we have to live in the world just as everyone does. We do what we have to to survive and get by.