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This is bullshit thread #3

365 replies

HornyTortoise · 28/08/2016 22:39

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do... Smile

OP posts:
HornyTortoise · 29/08/2016 00:37

WhatTheActualFugg also, to make my position clearer, I do not believe in female brains and male brains either. I think in many cases being 'trans' is BDD, mental illness, a need to conform to social sterotypes or denial to admit one is homosexual (more specifically with 'recent' trans, those caught up in the 'trend) or a mix of the lot.

By the trend thing..and this will be controversial but I need to say it...when I was at school, bisexuality was the 'trend'. Nearly every other person was bisexual. I now believe that in schools 'trans' is the new in thing. Homosexuality, or even bisexuality are not seen as attractive anymore so now, only homosexuals and bisexuals 'identify' as such in schools, not the ones along for the ride/popularity. So..I guess I can add a bit of peer pressure type thinking to then list above too.

This does not mean I do not believe being transsexual is a real thing, I need to add. But it is not understood at all, and never will be until people are allowed to have an opinion that is not 'trans women are actual women'. Including medical professionals and such.

Honestly, though..my position flipflops so much these days but only one constant remains. You can NEVER actually change your biological sex.

The other constant is, and always will be..I have sympathy for transsexual people. I cannot imagine how hard life must be for them. As such I have the utmost support for them doing whatever they chose to to be happy in their own bodies, if this means having plastic surgeries and such, so be it. Same as I wouldn't judge someone for having a boob job. I will also, out of courtesy, use whatever pronouns they chose to go by. Unless, said pronoun goes against my personal belief, which is....I will never call a full on guy who 'lives as a guy' 'she' simply because he says he is a woman in his head. Such things are damaging to both women and transwomen alike.

OP posts:
HornyTortoise · 29/08/2016 00:40

What does 'classing someone as a woman' mean?
Surely, either they are a woman, or they are not?

In the sense of my post, I meant sharing women only spaces with them. Correct pronouns and such...

Again, it was my personal view though and I do not expect everyone to think this way. I totally understand the other side of the coin.

OP posts:
WhatTheActualFugg · 29/08/2016 00:41

I've been sitting seething all evening about Caitlynn Jenner winning Woman of the Year and French police stripping women on the beach (and wondering if anyone has told a man he can't wear long sleeves on a beach). When I came on here and read Horny's opening post I thought my MN sisters had turned their backs on what I thought the whole point of this discussion was.

Judging TW on how good a job they've managed to make of their transitioning is no better than a group of leery men scoring passing women passed on their looks.

What's more, if you're going to start judging TW's right to be 'classed' as a woman on their 'beauty' then again you reduce our sex to nothing more than cosmetic decoration.

HornyTortoise · 29/08/2016 00:42

Also yes, RTFT definitely should not be expected in this case Grin Would take at least a whole day to do so.

OP posts:
HornyTortoise · 29/08/2016 00:46

Judging TW on how good a job they've managed to make of their transitioning is no better than a group of leery men scoring passing women passed on their looks.

Do you not think..this is only such an issue now because of the current trans-agenda? As for years and years it has generally been accepted that if you 'pass' as a woman you can use womens loos and such..I have very rarely seen anyone bring this up as an issue in the past. Now however, it HAS to be spoken about due to men in frocks hijacking the transmovement entirely. And yes, I would say Caitlyn is one of those people.

OP posts:
shinynewusername · 29/08/2016 07:55

The thing is transwomen have been sharing our spaces for donkeys years, pre op and post op. They haven't been strided about the place naked. Or exposing themselves. All was fine. The TA have blown all this up to the detriment of women and transwomen.

This. There always have been TW and TM - or at least people who felt so uncomfortable with the social constraints on their sex that they chose to live as if a member of the other sex.

What is new is the ideology behind TRA: trying to make us all believe six impossible things before breakfast, including lady brain; that a man who transitions in his 50s (say) has "always been a woman" and that all children who don't rigidly adhere to gender stereotypes are Trans.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 08:03

Agree fugg. Again, me personally - I have no issue sharing with anyone - I'm not shy Grin

But (as much an arse as Danielle Muscato is) there is a point to the "a woman doesn't have to look like xyz to be a woman". A woman looking like Danielle - with short hair, a full beard (imagine she has pcos rather than regular old male puberty) and wearing jeans would not be assumed to be a man

WhatTheActualFugg · 29/08/2016 08:11

horny yes, I agree it's the TA arseholes now bringing these issues to the forefront, certainly.

But I don't think that means it could have been left well alone and all would continue to be hunky dory.

The TA arseholes are the catalyst but not the reason this needs to be addressed. Well, not the only reason anyway.

And I still stand by my earlier comments. If you tell a TW she's beautiful enough to 'pass' then that's no better than all the mysogonistic shit generations of women have been spent all their lives trying to erradicate. It validates the trans ideology that being a woman is all about accepting sexual objectification.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2016 08:20

And I still stand by my earlier comments. If you tell a TW she's beautiful enough to 'pass' then that's no better than all the mysogonistic shit generations of women have been spent all their lives trying to erradicate. It validates the trans ideology that being a woman is all about accepting sexual objectification.

I do agree with this, but think you may have misunderstood folk slightly - I think what was said that if a TW passed then they would be treated as a.woman by default. This was as part of the discussion on how you figure out which TW you would be happy to treat as a woman.

Theoretically speaking biology should rule, and TW should never be treated as a woman, but instead as a TW but that seems so draconian when applied to real individuals.

I think maybe you are right though and the only fair non-judgemental way is to stick to biology, and make sure that TW have their own safe TW spaces?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2016 08:21

But (as much an arse as Danielle Muscato is) there is a point to the "a woman doesn't have to look like xyz to be a woman".

Absolutely. But a woman does need to be female to be a woman...

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 08:24

Bringing this (it's my post) over from the Spartacus thread so I don't derail...

...

Onslow, did you read my post around "born in the wrong body"? No attack, I'm just curious if you believe people are born with a 'soul'?

I'll c&p so you don't have to look for it smile

"Ps - sperm is made in daddy's bollocks. When it's made, during meiosis ii it becomes an x sperm or a y sperm. Sex of future baby is determined at this point.
If gender is your 'brain sex', it (assuming there isn't a soul floating around...) will be formed when the neural tube (ie very early brain) is at about 3-4 weeks gestation.

Even if there were any physical 'proof' of incompatibility of brain and sex, the sex was there first. "Born in the wrong body" is bullshit. At the most, it is a fault in the brain."

The brain is formed a very minimum of three weeks after the sex is determined. How does this tally with "born in the wrong body"?

404NotFound · 29/08/2016 08:26

The 'identify as' thing is interesting as a concept.

By way of analogy, some people feel a strong pull to a country, language and culture that is not the one they grew up in. My youngest dc is obsessed with Japan, teaching herself Japanese, planning to spend her gap year in Japan to improve her language skills. But however long she lives there, as a tall, blonde European, she will never pass for local, so it will always be obvious that she's a foreigner who has acquired very good linguistic skills and cultural knowledge.

So let's try a thought experiment and assume instead that she's obsessed with Sweden. She learns the language, spends a few years living there, and eventually acquires a native-like grasp of the language. Because she's tall and blonde, she fits right in, visually-speaking, so no one can easily tell that she's not a local.

But in neither case is she actually the same as someone who has grown up in that language and culture, regardless of how strongly she identifies with it, even if she makes it her home, marries a local, and acquires a new passport. The ability to pass is not irrelevant, because it will affect other people's reactions to her, but neither does it change the fundamental fact that her experiences are not collectively the same as a native of that country. And no doubt she would be swiftly reminded of that fact if she started trying to criticise or change the way things were done in her adopted home.

The Muscato/Alex/Ada car crash is the equivalent of spending a couple of months in France and then feeling the right to tell the French they're doing everything wrong and they don't really understand how to be French, so they should listen to them and learn how to do it better. And then they express surprise that the locals react badly to this. Confused

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 08:26

Itsall... Yy, ergo anything is a woman. My roomba identifies as a woman, prove to me it isn't one!! Grin

WhatTheActualFugg · 29/08/2016 08:36

I get that a TW in a ladies public loo who 'passed' may go unnoticed and therefore 'treated as a woman'.

But was is this 'treated as a woman' business? Why did women need to be treated differently? Are you going to talk more gently to a woman? Or perhaps speak a b i t s l o w e r?!

No one should be treated any differently to anyone else.

If single sex spaces are needed then they should be single sex. M or F. There is no third option.

Start segregation of people based on their own gender personalities and you validate the thesis that not performing to gender stereotypes means a person can be wrong for their sex. Instead of validating such prejudices we should be fostering inclusivity and acceptance within the two sexes.

MephistoMarley · 29/08/2016 08:39

TW who pass will always have an easier ride because they will be assumed to be women. TW with bottom surgery etc are definitely closer to being women than men but that doesn't mean they are women. To be a woman you must be female.
The important point here is that whilst we as individuals might be perfectly happy sharing facilities with Miranda, Helen, some gay men and even some straight men, there must be a blanket rule. It's not about individuals, it's about generalities, and if you're male, you don't belong in female spaces.

WhatTheActualFugg · 29/08/2016 08:41

Not thesis ffs!! theory

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 08:43

Unrelated to anything really (the talking more gently made me think of it), but a sort of celeb I sort of follow recently came out as transgender. (I won't go into detail as they haven't done anything "wrong" to be openly criticised, iyswim).

They said via an announcement thing that their voice will not change. Oh you can guess - first time I hear them speaking in their new persona, they're putting on a new voice.

StatisticallyChallenged · 29/08/2016 08:48

I said similar re the bisexuality trend at school on the previous thread, it waa definitely the in thong and this does remind me of it

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 29/08/2016 08:57

Morning all. Is there any way we can out a link to this thread on #2? Just worried people may get lost.

What are we going to do? Are we just waiting for a statement from MNHQ? I imagine that will take some time as they need to get back to work and then spend time on thinking this through. Or is there something more IRL?

BombadierFritz · 29/08/2016 08:59

the born in the wrong body thing always seems so woo/cod religious, as if the speaker believes in souls wandering around homeless. like religion, it has zero scientific basis but you cant prove its not true apparentlyHmm

WhatTheActualFugg · 29/08/2016 09:04

Someone could always start a change.org petition asking the government to cease accepting of non-biological facts and stop any further movements to include men in women's prisons etc.

Someone who can put it much better than I can and can succinctly explain why the trans movement is so damaging to women, to children, to men.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 29/08/2016 09:12

I'm going to go back and read all the posts, I'm really finding this debate/these threads amazingly mentally stimulating!

But this has started buzzing in my head and it's distracting me from reading so I'll type it out, then go back and finish reading, apologies.

I had a thought about why there is less issue with FTT entering man spaces. If I may use a really crass analogy, it's like wolves and sheep.
Men are the wolves (dominant, oppressor) and women are the sheep (non-dominant, oppressed). For a wolf to dress as a sheep in order to enter the sheepfold, the only ones at risk are the sheep. For a sheep to dress as a wolf and enter the wolf pack, the only one at risk is the sheep.
Either way, the sheep is at risk - always at risk - so the sheep aren't willingly going to advertise their insistence that they enter the wolfpack, because they know they'll be putting themselves at risk by doing so.

I AM NOT saying that "all men are wolves" - far from it and I wouldn't be so insulting. But you cannot tell which men are "wolves" - so as a "sheep", it's a helluva risk to enter a potential wolf-space, where there might be sheepdogs or there might be wolves; and it's a helluva risk for the "sheep" when someone who may or may not be a wolf enters "sheep-space".

God I hope no one is insulted by this! It just made sense to me as to why FTT aren't standing up and yelling about why they should be allowed to infiltrate male-only spaces.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2016 09:27

God I hope no one is insulted by this! It just made sense to me as to why FTT aren't standing up and yelling about why they should be allowed to infiltrate male-only spaces.

YY. We mustnt forget about the FTT - if we conclude that single sex spaces must remain single sex, then we don't just need separate safe spaces for "the third sex" we need separate safe spaces for MTTs and FTTs individually, rather than just thinking about a safe space for Ts.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 29/08/2016 09:40

But are Mtt at risk from ftt? I honestly have no idea of the stats re that. But if we have separate facilities for both Mtt and ftt, do we need separate again for genderfluid/pan-gender/agender/otherkin whatever. Or do they all have to share an additional third (fifth) space?

Or do we just have a third "unisex" option for all?

Felascloak · 29/08/2016 09:44

Great thread!
I forget who said upthread, but I agree the debate about safe spaces isn't actually about access for trans people. Its about reducing access for sex offenders.
If I am getting changed after going to the gym and someone else comes in and just gets changed next to me, I don't care, its all fine. I probably won't even look long enough to notice if they are a TW as not looking at naked people is gym etiquette.
If someone who looks very male comes in and starts staring at me, then I want to be able to challenge them without finding myself on the wrong side of the law for being "transphobic". I don't want to have to put up with them there staring until they have comitted a proveable crime. I don't want the criminal justice system to be the only way to get perverts out of my space.
Add on top of that how difficult it is to prove sex crimes when its one persons word against another and it worries me a lot.
We know so much now about how predatory men groom victims and the lengths they will go to to commit crimes. I don't understand this kind of wilful blind spot, that no man would ever abuse the new gender rules to offend. Its counter to everything we know about sex offenders.