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This is bullshit thread #3

365 replies

HornyTortoise · 28/08/2016 22:39

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do... Smile

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/08/2016 12:59

And now I've made a terribly long post too Smile

microferret · 30/08/2016 13:22

But another very interesting one, prawn

Too many people think sex is a human right. It isn't. In the animal kingdom lots of creatures don't manage to mate or pass on their genes. Those are the rules of attraction. Nobody has the right to sex, but everyone should have the right to refuse unwanted sex. Sadly a lot of TAs don't seem to realise that.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/08/2016 13:35

The truth will set you free, but first it will really piss you off.

How very true, Helen. I had to deal with the truth when recovering from alcoholism and it was extremely painful. I'm very long term sober now and attribute this to becoming willing to confront the lies all addicts tell themselves and others. Hurts, yes, but it's immensely liberating.

HermioneWeasley · 30/08/2016 19:54

I missed VVV's post that got deleted - what was the problem with what she said?

CharlieSierra · 30/08/2016 20:11

I missed it too, can anyone fill us in please?

NauticalDisaster · 30/08/2016 20:15

She chose to have it deleted, the message states withdrawn at the poster's request.

Felascloak · 30/08/2016 20:16

Nothing - it's been withdrawn at her request so I assume too personal in cold light of day.

AuntyElle · 30/08/2016 21:29

I am so grateful for these threads. It is so valuable to be able to read and learn from an open and intelligent discussion. It is vital that we are able to have this conversation on MN. I am not seeing or hearing it anywhere else. Thank you all.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 30/08/2016 22:10

I know the Spartacus thread has kicked off and don't want to derail anymore than it has been, me included.

We are women. We are on the side of Science and Logic.

I'm not fucking submitting to this shitehead wankdom!

Waltermittythesequel · 30/08/2016 22:32

I think the "how about trans people and non-trans people" suggestion has been telling.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 30/08/2016 22:35

Yes, totally makes sense. It places transpeople (OK let's be honest, transwomen) at the centre of the Universe where they belong.

Anything else is bullying. innit?

TanTanNubuck · 30/08/2016 23:18

Absolutely, walter.

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:28

I think the "how about trans people and non-trans people" suggestion has been telling.

Yes, very much like the cries about centering transwomen in all feminist issues right? Bloody ridiculous.

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:35

Also if anyone wants a laugh regarding the use of offensive pronouns and how ridiculous things are right now

slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/06/07/about-that-hate-crime-i-committed-at-university-of-chicago

Dan Savage..who actively campaigned for trans-rights, is himself a gay man and a drag queen. Its interesting reading the comments quite how many of the LGB community would like to distance themselves from the T. I understand it too really, being trans has nothing to do with being lesbian/gay/bi and some of the movement has seemed quite homophobic to me for a while now. I didn't really click on until a few days ago that the reason is...in a few cases it comes across as effectively...curing 'the gay'. Man who likes men...be a woman. You are now straight? Not in all cases mind. This is obviously excluding those who 'are a woman' to get into the knickers of lesbians.

itsatiggerday · 31/08/2016 05:57

OK, first post on any of these matters and I'm still vague and fuzzy on many of the issues but thinking, gradually.

The recent posts have talked about conservative, homophobic, bigoted Christian views. Yet many of the posters have rejected being labelled transphobic and bigoted for their deep convictions about truth and reality.

Is there any contradiction here that might cause some some assumptions to be questioned?

Lalsy · 31/08/2016 09:07

Biology isn't an assumption.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/08/2016 09:21

Just read MNs response to this, and TBH I am Shock (MNHQ in bold)

Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

Maybe not banned, but certainly deleted.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

So free speech is not allowed where it may cause offence or hurt to someone? This is not consistent with how other topic are moderated where views that others may be uncomfortable with are left to stand; politics, religion, homeopathy, anti vaxxers etc

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

"Sex at birth" pronouns? Shock So MNHQ believes that sex can be changed? A belief that most on these threads (and basic science!) opposes. Furthermore people may feel inflamed or belittled when the correct pronoun was used, when the intention was to be truthful and accurate. I am however happy that you see pronouns as being used to describe sex rather than gender, even though that kind of makes misgendering an impossibility.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

I'm sorry MNHQ but it is a shit fudge. There are plenty of forums available where the groups you mention above can go to have their views/opinions/feelings validated. MNHQ has always been a place for robust debate where common sense and science tend to prevail. This is again not the stance you take on other topics, I'm not quite sure why trans issues is a special case? I am also a bit Shock that you seem to be suggestions that we should ignore mainstream scientific thinking in case we hurt someone's feelings?

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

So we are allowed to use the correct pronouns is a headline grabbing case? I'm sorry MNHQ but I will not accept that a transwoman is a "he" .

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

Er no. Your policy seems to be to ignore and fudge rather than coming out clearly with a useful statement. I am interested to know what MNHQ thinks the issues are and how they can be solved though.

MNHQ also posted saying that suggesting autogynephila was a prime motivator for transitioning would be deleted - MirandaYardley replied to this over on the Spartacus thread.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/08/2016 09:23

I'm sorry MNHQ but I will not accept that a transwoman is a "he" .

That should be "she" FFs Blush

microferret · 31/08/2016 11:58

There are plenty of forums available where the groups you mention above can go to have their views/opinions/feelings validated. MNHQ has always been a place for robust debate where common sense and science tend to prevail.

This, a thousand times. There are so many places, both online and offline, where parents of trans children who affirm trans ideology can easily go. There are virtually none, except 4thwavenow, where parents of trans children who are sceptical about making their child a long-term medical patient, potentially with healthy tissue irreversibly amputated and all the psychological damage that that entails, can go for sensible, critical debate on this issue. We are seeing ever more detransitioners popping up all over the western world - kids who were sold transition as a magic bullet for all their ills, and who quickly discovered that it is often not the panacea it is evangelised to be.

MNHQ, I would counter that you have a responsibility to include differing views on this subject not in spite of these parents, but specifically for their benefit. You include the pros and cons of various controversial methods such CIO and co-sleeping - why not do the same for transition? We understand that you are under pressure to conform to the orthodoxy as we all are, but if you really are by parents, for parents, you must understand that that means approaching such crucial subjects with bluntly critical reasoning, not blind submission to whatever happens to be today's cause celebre.

JAPABiamtheonewhoknocks · 31/08/2016 12:39

itsatiggerday ^The recent posts have talked about conservative, homophobic, bigoted Christian views. Yet many of the posters have rejected being labelled transphobic and bigoted for their deep convictions about truth and reality.

Wouldn't there only be a contradiction if there was some sort of parallel or overlap between the two matters that someone is making a value judgment/holding a sense of what is what, on?

The two matters 'what is a man/woman' and 'is homosexuality wrong' are not two such matters surely? So can't see the contradiction in subscribing to any view on one, and any view on the other, and then going on to object to those who hold differing views in one (and using pejoratives against them) while at the same time not being happy about receiving pejoratives from others about the other matter.

HermioneWeasley · 31/08/2016 12:56

I was suspended for misgendering and was told it would only be lifted if I agreed to stick within talk guidelines in future, so I don't think it's accurate to say nobody has been banned for misgendering alone.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 31/08/2016 16:19

I've seen the email posie was sent too, I'm quite sure it was re misgendering...

Perhaps mnhq aren't keeping track of who is banned and why, and there's a rogue admin...?

WrongTrouser · 31/08/2016 17:35

I think microferret's point about parents above is really important and hope MNHQ take note.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 31/08/2016 18:03

We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but.....

But???

There are circumstances in which this is ok?

what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked?

Belittled women discussing and pointing out the anti woman, lesbophobic, homophobic, regressive aspects of it? MNHQ seriously want this stuff given a free pass so parents of transitioning teens can just get the antiwoman, lesbo/homophobic hate undiluted and unquestioned? And that's supposed to be a positive, supportive thing to do for those parents?

SERIOUSLY?

MNHQ this boils down to be good girls and go along with the gaslighting quietly. I'm sorry, but fuck that.

As to the 'we won't be allowed to talk about breastfeeding is all hysteria' - er, no it isn't. I don't honestly see how MNHQ can hold this position while not going the rest of the way down that road, it's just a matter of time.

About 800 women stood up, aware they might be banned for doing so, and made their views on this clear. And have been ignored. In other news, guess what bears do in the woods? Sad

ErrolTheDragon · 31/08/2016 18:38

Hopefully MNHQ will read the post from a non-hypothetical parent of a kid who was being influenced to transition and realise that how important it is to be able to maintain dissenting voices against the current TA tide. Parents like her need support and its hard to find elsewhere.

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