This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW

What about trans men? I cannot imagine the fear that they must experience - as usual, it's male violence and the fear of male violence. The elephant in the room of this conversation

but it's still something that happens to us rather than something we choose.

That's a really interesting point. I suspect that at the extreme TRA end of the spectrum there is a greater element of choice involved, or am I being really unfair?

Helen I realise this is going to sound horribly patronising and sycophantic but can I just thank you for your answers on this thread?

It's such a relief to be able to discuss it without being completely (sometimes I suspect deliberately) misunderstood.

And of course you can only speak from your own experiences but I appreciate the viewpoint just the same.

'Women and non-twatty TW' :D :D :D

ut I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be found helicoptering their penis in a womens changing room

That's it - if you have dysphoria, the last thing you would want to be doing is 'helicoptering your penis'.

women + non twatty TW this works too

As I said earlier, I would have absolutely no issue personally sharing any space with genuine trans women. Genuine to me, means actually does identify as a woman and not a big hairy dude who says he does and makes no effort at all besides declaring it so.

But if we as a whole, have to draw the line somewhere..I realistically cannot see there being any other option than the 'no penis' thing. As I cannot discount the thoughts of women who would feel very uncomfortable knowing a penis was in the vicinity of their self in such a vulnerable position when it could be avoided..if this makes sense.

Itsall I may be having a fundamental problem understanding you all of a sudden, but....

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW? when you say "non twatty" can you clarify that you don't specifically mean "without a twat" ?

What about trans men? I cannot imagine the fear that they must experience - as usual, it's male violence and the fear of male violence. The elephant in the room of this conversation

I think they should use the facilities they feel most comfortable in , and I think male violence is a massively important issue on its own.

The problem is that the male violence which makes TW (and TM) fear men, is what makes women fear TW.

That said, I doubt the unpleasant TRA types fear men at all, but the fear felt by those TW who are of feminised appearance is something they willing use to try and push in to female spaces.

I suspect that at the extreme TRA end of the spectrum there is a greater element of choice involved

I suspect so, too.

when you say "non twatty" can you clarify that you don't specifically mean "without a twat" ?

It was shorter than typing non misogynistic, non sexist, etc ...

I'm in agreement with you ItsAll, I think some of the more extreme end probably have a significant amount of choice.

[b]What about trans men? I cannot imagine the fear that they must experience - as usual, it's male violence and the fear of male violence. The elephant in the room of this conversation[/b] We never hear about anything to do with trans men though, and I feel the main reason for this is again...the attitude of TAs who simply want control over women and how women are viewed. It is nothing to do with actual trans rights in so many cases...

I would equally go for trans men only spaces. Where they can be comfortable themselves. Or, if they chose to they can use the womens rooms, given they are actually women in biology, which makes sense if we are excluding 'people with penises'

The problem is that the male violence which makes TW (and TM) fear men, is what makes women fear TW

Exactly. Kind of ironic, really.

I fear men. Not all men. But I know male violence. I know exactly what it is like as I have lots of experience of it.

I want to be safe. Just like women do.

The thing is transwomen have been sharing our spaces for donkeys years, pre op and post op.

They haven't been strided about the place naked. Or exposing themselves.

All was fine.

The TA have blown all this up to the detriment of women and transwomen.

Wrong fucking bold code.

I really don't know the answer about the toilet debate. I really don't.

I mean I'd fully support gender neutral toilets, but that doesn't help the here and now when you go somewhere that doesn't have them.

I'm happy to discuss it but I don't have a satisfactory answer.

This thread moves so fast!

IfTheCapFits

YY - and I really don't understand why there's not more of a kickback against it. It's such a nuanced thing, like Helen said, there is no answer to the toilets issue, but it used to work. The problem is the TAs are trying to force a straight line through this very nuanced situation and it's not likely to end up well on either side of the line.

They haven't been strided about the place naked. Or exposing themselves.

YES! THIS!

That is fucking insane and crosses every possible boundary! That's what proves that they are just pervy dudes.

It's the VERY LAST THING that any "real" TW would do.

The thing is transwomen have been sharing our spaces for donkeys years, pre op and post op.

Yup, and I have never had an issue, and don't know anyone who has. The issue here is not really trans women at all, but these blokes who are imposing their wishes on EVERYONE using trans as..an excuse. Unfortunately, I do not feel there is any going back from this. The way these men have behaved has damaged the genuine trans-movement catastrophically where if things were left as they were, trans people were (IMO) accepted as whatever they chose to be. Now, we need to make the distinction between 'genuine' trans, and these blokes on a power trip. Which is fucking sad, and a huge step backwards for us as a society in general.

Vicki

I am SO sorry to hear that. Bastards.

This conversation should be all about protecting women from predatory males. One can't help but think that anybody who wants to obfuscate or derail that conversation must be a predatory male or what else do they have to gain?

Agree with horny

Which is a sentence i never thought i would write

My bed is calling. G'night John Boy xx