Please do encourage your non-native speaker DC to take MFL for A level if that’s what they would like

[clary]

MFL is my subject – I studied MFL at A level and university, taught MFL at secondary and now tutor and conduct speaking assessments. This isn’t an ad! – just to show I have some knowledge.

Take-up of MFL at GCSE and very much at A level is sadly (my view) diminishing. There are a number of reasons – it’s seen as difficult or not needed, big focus on STEM (which I am not against FWIW).

One suggested reason is because of all the native speakers who will make it much harder to gain a higher grade (esp at A level). I wanted to help people to see that it’s not an issue, and that if their DC is keen on French or German or Spanish or any other language, they should (please) pursue it in some way, whether that’s qualifications or some independent method (Duolingo, travel, online class).

People worry that grade boundaries are unfairly pushed up by the numbers of native speakers, making it impossible for a non-native to get a good grade. But in fact there is no need to be of native speaker standard to gain a top grade – which the AQA spec clearly states. If you get the marks – and they are there to be got – you’ll get the grade. The GCSE and A level exam are not targeted at the high end of a native speaker ability. It’s not easy, you’ll need to work, but what’s the issue with that?

And are the GBs pushed up? Pretty sure they are not. Polish GCSE, for example, which surely is sat in virtually every case by a native speaker – AQA GCSE GBs for a 9-8-7 last year – 196/173/150; GBs for French (mostly not sat by natives) 195/172/150; Spanish (ditto) 195/170/145. Very very similar. More than 80% of those taking Polish GCSE get a grade 7+ – but you can see, that has not affected the GBs. Nor should it IMHO.

And looking at A level, where German is taken by so few students that the % of native speakers must be higher than for French or Spanish (both taken by three times as many) – GBs for A-star and A, 351/304; French 358/325; Spanish 344/303. A higher mark needed to get a top grade in French, not German, even tho the % of natives in French will be lower.

A colleague said to me last year that their DS was in an A level class with a French native speaker – “of course that was a nightmare as he couldn’t do as well as her” – firstly it’s not a contest – you can both get an A-star! Secondly it can be a massive benefit. I had a friend in my A level French class who was amazing at vocab. She was an asset in class and my colleague’s DC's classmate could be too. Ask them vocab, learn the latest idiom from them, they will have interesting views on the social and political issues you need to discuss. It really is a positive.

Also I want to stress that despite what some ppl believe, being a native speaker is not a shoo-in for an A star at A level. For sure it is a help, I would be foolish to deny that. But I have seen native speakers in speaking assessments who have clearly thought they just need to rock up and boom! top grade. They have presented a woefully inadequate IRP form, and not done their homework on the topics. I had a native speaker candidate last year was emphatic that she didn’t need to have read a book or watched a film, as no one had told her about that element of the exam. These students will not get A stars.

I tell you who will tho – a student (native or not) who has worked hard, researched their IRP topic, learned some good vocab, stats and current views on the 12 topics; a student who has learned how to do to do well in the written exams, including summaries (often the downfall of a native speaker IME) and translation tasks; a student who has read the book, watched the film, read around both and acquired the necessary vocab and structures to write cogently about the themes therein. All of that is available to both native and non-native speakers. Some of the very best candidates I have seen in speaking assessments have been native speakers who had clearly done lots and lots of work, and some of the other best have been non-native, who ditto.

All that said – I really don’t advise A level MFL without a strong grounding in vocab and grammar – which usually equates (other factors aside) to a grade 7 at GCSE.

Anyway what a long post! sorry! but I am interested in others’ views and experiences.

@Araminta1003 Depends on the job and how the parent views the MFL curriculum. Some will teach it - they know what to do. They could be MFL teachers!

I know this is an old thread but I had been musing on this for a while. My son has just done GCSEs and is very able at languages. I did languages at Oxford back in the day. The reason I would steer him away from A level now is that in my older daughter’s A level French class a couple of years ago she was the ONLY non-native speaker. She got an A and they all got A stars. It skews the boundary to have so many fluent speakers. It’s such a shame but I think that’s the reason young people aren’t pursuing it, not so much the “oh who needs a foreign language anymore” and more “I can’t compete with the native speakers”. This is from a London independent school view anyway where there are many children with a first language at home that they can then sail through an A level with. I don’t think it should be allowed actually.

At least unis seem to be a bit stricter. My DD's uni course says no native speakers though I have no idea how they actually control that. Maybe that's why MFL departments are struggling!

My son is planning on taking Maths, Spanish and Philosophy for a levels starting in a couple of weeks - he absolutely smashed those / similar subjects at gcse and regarding Spanish, is really looking forward to the challenge. He asked teachers at the sixth form college about native speakers at a level, and they said there’s usually about 2/3 non native to 1/3 native, and by no means do the native speakers always get the top grades. Obviously they’re keen to get students on the course too, but I don’t think they’d outright lie. Anyway, my son is determined that if there are native speakers, they’ll be good to have speaking practice with and work alongside. He’s really looking forward to it.

Seriously - why do people do this? If DC lived in France, I’d be embarrassed about them taking A level equivalent exams in English!

What do you mean by "native"?
In most cases, we are not talking about truly native speakers, but about children of native speakers. Eg children born in the UK, from parents who were brought up in France / Spain / Latin America etc then moved here.

These kids are not native speakers. They often speak at near-native level, but read and especially write worse than a native who is 5-6 years younger.

They have an advantage, but are not native speakers.

Exactly. The vast majority are kids born in the UK to one or more native speakers.

My own daughter was born in the UK and has never even been to any Russian-speaking country, but I try to speak Russian at home. She has only recently learned to read and write properly. She did Russian GCSE (got a 9) and will do Russian at A-level as a 4th A-level. Although she has an advantage over other students in speaking, I wouldn't say she has much of an advantage in reading or writing at all.

The speaking part of the exam is the one most candidates score lowest on. You are kidding yourself. I echo the poster above who said they’d be embarrassed to be taking the equivalent in another country if I was already speaking English fluently at home with my parents.

We noticed this was encouraged by quite a few all girls London schools so they can show high percentage of Astar and A at A levels and 9s in GCSEs in their website. Their websites at times don’t breakdown to subjects just high grades achieved. It stop a French family moving to one of the school for sixth forms as DC didn’t want to do French A levels and the suggestions and encouragement for their native language was not what they wanted.

The speaking exam in Spanish a level is worth 30% of the total marks so doing well in that is a big deal.

It can benefit you with a formal exam if you want to study in the native country later.

Our native language isn't an option in UK schools so one of our children sat an exam outside school in before admitted to university in our native country.

For many children it will be educational and rewarding to take their family's native language. Many are certainly not fully bilingual and in the long term it can provide opportunities for them to also be able to manage life in the family language.

A lot of children raised in UK don't speak their parents' language fluently.
Many have parents with different languages. English is for a lot of bilingual chikdren the strongest language as it's the school language and used among friends.

But it also means that you can forget an A* if you make spelling errors, or get your accents wrong when writing, right?

But that's true of native and non native speakers. Or are you suggesting that native speakers routinely can't be arsed putting in the effort for the other two exams?

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees I am suggesting that truly native speakers aged 17-18 who are moderately academic do not need to put in a lot of effort to remember proper spelling, because, by that time, it comes (should come) naturally to them.

I am suggesting that very few, if any, children of native speakers are native speakers themselves. They have an advantage, but they are not native speakers. Again: I am not denying the advantage - I am simply saying it is not the same a truly native speaker would have.

To end on a lighter note, have a look at these two SNL skits:

and

Hey all this was my thread from last year. So I've not reread but here's what I think. A YP in general should take the A levels (if a candidate for A levels) that:

• Fit with their ambitions going forward (physics and maths for engineering, bio and chem for medicine, Eng lit for Eng lit degree)
• They enjoy
• They will get a good grade in

Hopefully there's correlation between all these.

WRT to native speakers and I am sure I said this on the thread but hey

• There is a huge range from "I was brought up speaking this language" to "my mum sometimes speaks it at home". Obviously the former has a bigger advantage in terms of language
• I have known ( I am a speaking assessment examiner) "native" (quotes bc of huge range noted) speakers who did a superb speaking assessment, and also "native" speakers who absolutely bombed. Even at GCSE but especially at A level
• A strong speaker of a language obvs has an advantage but even then they will have to do a fuckton of work to get an A-star

It's more than possible to gain an A-star as a non native. A former colleague had a candidate this year get two A stars in two MFLs they are not in any way a native speaker of. They did lots and lots of work.

Yes a genuine native will have an advantage (tho if a true native speaker, they will be disadvantaged in their other subjects) but they will still need to do a lot of work. No way even an actual French person could swing into A level French and get an A star without some work. A lot of work.

Don't compare yourself with others. Take German A level if you want to and think you will do well and enjoy it. And be prepared to work hard. If you end up with a B (as my DD did) it's not the fault of the native speakers in your class.

Why are you guys not embarrassed about taking English A level here in the UK?

truly native speakers aged 17-18 who are moderately academic do not need to put in a lot of effort to remember proper spelling, because, by that time, it comes (should come) naturally to them.

This is incorrect. Writing never comes naturally, even in native countries it has to be taught for years, just like English to native English speakers in the UK and it doesn't always work as we still see sepErate and the like.

Because English A level isn’t about learning new words or testing your ability to listen to a conversation or to speak! It is an entirely different level of language and designed for native speakers.

Oh but it all comes naturally to native speakers 😁
I had a quick look at the paper and it's not rocket science.

@Ubertomusic Do you think the native speaker parents don’t teach this? Many dc are taught by their teacher parents who just happen to be French or German etc. Just as maths parents help dc with maths.

I know many native speakers of various languages whose children don't even speak their language, let alone write it. At all. Corporate careers leave very little time for anything else. DC's friend with both native French parents speaking French at home understands French but can hardly speak it. Writing is much harder than speaking.

Yet the children are considered "native speakers" just by their surnames 🤷‍♀️ That child won't be allowed to take French at a top uni.

writing doesn’t come naturally to native speakers of course but you surely must recognise the level of advantage?
Instinctively you know if a word is masculine or feminine , the right verb conjugation to use or definite article or the right case if applicable.
Of course you need to learn how to spell all that and what accent goes where but it us a huge advantage compared to the person who has has to learn all that plus the vocab!

Plus i would argue if you cant pick up a language having heard it spoken by native speakers in your home every day - you probably shouldn’t be studying MFL at uni

They don't want to so don't worry, they won't be competing against your DC 😁