Please do encourage your non-native speaker DC to take MFL for A level if that’s what they would like

[clary]

MFL is my subject – I studied MFL at A level and university, taught MFL at secondary and now tutor and conduct speaking assessments. This isn’t an ad! – just to show I have some knowledge.

Take-up of MFL at GCSE and very much at A level is sadly (my view) diminishing. There are a number of reasons – it’s seen as difficult or not needed, big focus on STEM (which I am not against FWIW).

One suggested reason is because of all the native speakers who will make it much harder to gain a higher grade (esp at A level). I wanted to help people to see that it’s not an issue, and that if their DC is keen on French or German or Spanish or any other language, they should (please) pursue it in some way, whether that’s qualifications or some independent method (Duolingo, travel, online class).

People worry that grade boundaries are unfairly pushed up by the numbers of native speakers, making it impossible for a non-native to get a good grade. But in fact there is no need to be of native speaker standard to gain a top grade – which the AQA spec clearly states. If you get the marks – and they are there to be got – you’ll get the grade. The GCSE and A level exam are not targeted at the high end of a native speaker ability. It’s not easy, you’ll need to work, but what’s the issue with that?

And are the GBs pushed up? Pretty sure they are not. Polish GCSE, for example, which surely is sat in virtually every case by a native speaker – AQA GCSE GBs for a 9-8-7 last year – 196/173/150; GBs for French (mostly not sat by natives) 195/172/150; Spanish (ditto) 195/170/145. Very very similar. More than 80% of those taking Polish GCSE get a grade 7+ – but you can see, that has not affected the GBs. Nor should it IMHO.

And looking at A level, where German is taken by so few students that the % of native speakers must be higher than for French or Spanish (both taken by three times as many) – GBs for A-star and A, 351/304; French 358/325; Spanish 344/303. A higher mark needed to get a top grade in French, not German, even tho the % of natives in French will be lower.

A colleague said to me last year that their DS was in an A level class with a French native speaker – “of course that was a nightmare as he couldn’t do as well as her” – firstly it’s not a contest – you can both get an A-star! Secondly it can be a massive benefit. I had a friend in my A level French class who was amazing at vocab. She was an asset in class and my colleague’s DC's classmate could be too. Ask them vocab, learn the latest idiom from them, they will have interesting views on the social and political issues you need to discuss. It really is a positive.

Also I want to stress that despite what some ppl believe, being a native speaker is not a shoo-in for an A star at A level. For sure it is a help, I would be foolish to deny that. But I have seen native speakers in speaking assessments who have clearly thought they just need to rock up and boom! top grade. They have presented a woefully inadequate IRP form, and not done their homework on the topics. I had a native speaker candidate last year was emphatic that she didn’t need to have read a book or watched a film, as no one had told her about that element of the exam. These students will not get A stars.

I tell you who will tho – a student (native or not) who has worked hard, researched their IRP topic, learned some good vocab, stats and current views on the 12 topics; a student who has learned how to do to do well in the written exams, including summaries (often the downfall of a native speaker IME) and translation tasks; a student who has read the book, watched the film, read around both and acquired the necessary vocab and structures to write cogently about the themes therein. All of that is available to both native and non-native speakers. Some of the very best candidates I have seen in speaking assessments have been native speakers who had clearly done lots and lots of work, and some of the other best have been non-native, who ditto.

All that said – I really don’t advise A level MFL without a strong grounding in vocab and grammar – which usually equates (other factors aside) to a grade 7 at GCSE.

Anyway what a long post! sorry! but I am interested in others’ views and experiences.

Ahhh my post disappeared. So this is not our experience unfortunately. My eldest hard working naturally good at languages child. Got a D in his Spanish Alevel and was expecting an A/B. He worked hard was tutored everyday of his study leave. He wanted to do a Spanish degree but was rejected from his first choice uni. He managed to get into an excellent Russell group to do combined Spanish/Econ but I really won’t encourage my younger children to do MFL . My year 12 daughter really wanted to choose Spanish but it’s too hard to get the higher grades needed for a top university. She will probably get an A* in Business studies rather than a D in Spanish. It’s such a shame. It’s not as easy as everyone can get a good grades as they are limited. So nabbed by the native speakers. The last government had a plan in place to look into how to support better grades for non native speakers but this was forgotten with the new government. It’s a real problem. It’s risky to take a MFL Alevel even with my children’s top GCSE grades. It’s a shame but kids need to think tactically if they want to go to a good university rather than choosing the things they actually enjoy. It’s very depressing. Luckily my son managed to push through the disappointment and knows he loves speaking Spanish and he is loving his university course.

My kids state school offers 4 MFL at A level. It's a Welsh school, so one of the languages offered is Welsh, (also French, German & Spanish) but most of the students aren't native speakers of Welsh.

Good to hear. Much better than around here. MFL har been in decline the last years.

I wonder if the support for Welsh gives the whole languages department a boost. That number of options is unheard of where I am now and even the excellent grammar I went to only did 3.

Note that some universities may not accept an A-level in a students' native language.

But what do you mean by native, @clary ?

A child who did their primary school in Madrid / Lisbon / Warsaw / Berlin etc then moved to the UK is a native speaker and is likely to ace a GCSE or A level in their language.

But the children of foreigners are rarely truly bilingual or truly native speakers in their parents' language(s), if they are brought up here.

Some of these children attend additional classes in their parents' language and learn it very well.

Some practice the spoken language well, but they rarely practise grammar or writing. So you could be in a situation where the child of a French couple may understand a movie or song in French and may hold a conversation in Paris but still maybe get only a 7 at his GCSE, while a non-French student can tick more of the boxes that the exam board wants, even if they then might understand little to nothing of a French movie.

I suspect the Welsh requirement for Welsh to be taught in all schools right from Reception onwards means that students find learning languages generally to be less daunting than in schools where they only start with languages at secondary age. This has a knock-on effect to give a better supply of language teachers. Our Welsh teachers tend to teach another European language in addition to Welsh.

One of the challenges for some taking parents' languages for A-Level is complacency. You often build a colloquial and limited language range and need to up your game.

This isn't what faces the 'native speaker' who has transferred from significant education in the old country.

Both need to learn to conform to the demands of the syllabus, which can be a challenge. I can remember the imaginary steam coming from the head of Russian speaking student after an oral over what she thought was the limited ability of the examiner [lone entry - not me as I took Spanish and was THE already fluent 'Spanish kid' who worked out pretty much what was required].

Hiya! German graduate here! I also find the declining interest in MFL very disappointing. I think in part it is due to the increasing insular attitude of the UK.

DC’s school do MFL GCSE for all y9 students. EAL students can take Home language in Y10 and y11 is a mix of those who have taken a second GCSE language.

it really has worked but there is lower take up for A Levek kabgtsges which us a real shame

I think that's true. Lots of Welsh teachers also teach another European language.

It's not all rosy though, generally GCSE results in Wales are lower than in England, although some of that can be explained by England being more affluent overall than Wales.

The thing that is likely to stop my child from taking Spanish GCSE is unfortunately dyslexia rather than native speakers. Which is a real shame, because they absolutely loved it until they started having trouble with grammar. I would love it if there was a 'conversational' stream for kids like them, just to keep their hand in, and because their speaking and listening skills are good.

A friend's son has just taken up a place at Cambridge to study MFL (not a native speaker). I was delighted and a little misty-eyed when I heard he'd got his place.

If it's Highgate I wasn't impressed with their Russian or German teachers at open day (but this was a few years ago so they may have changed since). I'm native and both and I didn't think the teachers could speak either that well.

@MMBaranova I can remember the imaginary steam coming from the head of Russian speaking student after an oral over what she thought was the limited ability of the examiner

Another complication can be if there are significant differences between the "version" of the language spoken by the child and that taught in school. This can be the case for Spanish, because the differences among the various countries can be so much greater than those between British and American English.

Possibly but I think Google translate and AI have played a much bigger part in it. So many jobs have dwindled - friends who worked in translation have had to retrain and as degree choices have become more tied to job prospects, understandably with the costs, it’s a riskier option. Plus the grade boundary issues. Those seem like bigger factors to me, as kids tend to be less insular and more global, but English being the language of the internet won’t have helped them feel the need to learn when they can chat online to friends all over the world without needing any other language.

I did A Level French and German. and studied have a BA in contemporary languages with business.
I encouraged my son to take GCSE French and German, and the way it is taught now is nothing like how we were taught. He really struggled with how the teacher taught them, having been top of his class at middle school. Covid hit during Y10, and he ended up with grade 3 in both. A shame because he loved learning languages.
My youngest has no talent or interest in languages at all, which I am a little sad about

I would also add that some employers are not particularly impressed by an A-level in a MFL, as that is not always a huge indicator of fluency. Having a good score in one of the official exams of the equivalents of the British Council, say something at C1 level, is more impressive IMHO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

Yep. I know a (so called) native speaker whose mum is from that country, but she doesn't speak the language very fluently as she grew up abroad and only learned to read and write recently. She actually got a 6 at GCSE as she was quite underprepared.

My teen is currently doing her GCSE in my native language. She was born in the UK and never visited my country of birth. She speaks the language because I make sure we speak it at home (I'm quite strict about making her speak in my native language rather than English) but when it comes to writing and particularly spelling it's quite a disaster at the moment.

I agree with you about the internet.

Regarding the insularity attitude of the UK:

My Swiss friend’s daughter had to do several stays in foreign countries to pass her high school diploma (or whatever it’s called). I can’t imagine many British families entertaining this idea.

i have been struck by the difference between my school education and that of my DCs. In most respects, my DCs had a better education, but I feel with MFL not so much. I don’t mean the teachers, I just mean the general expectations. When I was 13, my school strongly encouraged us to have French and German penfriends and visit them. My DCs thought this was a crazy idea, even DC1, who is super academic and interested in absolutely everything and had travelled all over the world before finishing primary school. It was visiting my pen-friends than made me really good at languages- I don’t have any particular talent.

I feel like Brexit was a fairly inevitable consequence of this insularity.

Native speakers, some families members and British families with au pairs from countries with MFL meant their fluency makes it hard to get top marks for those just based on UK school curriculum. We found British families not doing GCSEs in Mandarin but in gap year spend six months in courses in China or in Oman for Arabic. The immersive aspects in spoken and written are not from mark scheme of exams and very practical.

I saw the title of the thread and thought "hear! hear!"

Then I read the content and was dismayed, just completely focused on students getting an A* rather than enjoying learning and speaking a foreign language.

DD got an 8 in French at GCSE. Went to Sixth Form College and got a C (her lowest grade) at A level despite her hard work. The French teacher was very poor indeed but that didn't stop DD from wanting to study French and History at an RG university.

She's in her third year now, doing her year abroad and absolutely loving it. Got no Turing funding from her uni but is part financing French uni and her travelling with savings from the part time job she's had since she was 16.

So, even if your child isn't going to get an A* or A, don't discourage them from studying a language for the love of it.

My Swiss friend’s daughter had to do several stays in foreign countries to pass her high school diploma (or whatever it’s called). I can’t imagine many British families entertaining this idea

Or families from most other countries for that matter! Seriously, who pays for that?

Oh so many replies! Thanks for the views – to reply to a few points:

@Stowickthevast I'm glad to say as I am sure you realise that it's perfectly possible to get a 9 at GCSE without being a native speaker. You need to be able and to work hard but I have supported numerous non-natives to a grade 9.

@mamagogo1 it's not so much that the results are skewed; of course students can gain a B or a C. It sounds to me in your case as tho the subject was not well taught (a class of 30 for A level is ridiculous; that should have been two or even three classes).

And I have never said that native speakers cannot or will not do well and get high grades; just that they won't necessarily do so; and non-natives can also gain high grades. It's not an either/or.

@angelcake20 I'm sorry that your DCs with a 7 and an 8 cannot pull together a sentence – I would certainly expect them to be able to. Just learning set phrases will not (IME) gain you an 8 as you don't know what will come up in speaking and written exams (unless someone is doing something they should not) and need to be able to react to that and speak or write extempore. With an 8 I would say you must have a decent ability to conjugate a verb and understand a good deal of vocab.

Sorry about the disappearing german @TheCountessofFitzdotterel - it is a real issue as Spanish is on the rise (tho ofc that's a good thing - but not at the expense of German!).

Thanks for the posts from ppl whose DC did well, not being native speakers! that's encouraging to read.

@Swindon25 I am sorry that your DD did not do better – I imagine there were reasons but I promise you it is not the case that native speakers "nab all the top grades" – as I say, not all native speakers do well, and the stats give the lie to that anyway – it if were true, the GBs would be a lot higher for German A level, which had a greater % of native speakers.

I actually think the A level syllabus is really interesting but then I am also a news junkie and history nut. I prefer the books and films on German A level to French tho.

@CForCake that;'s the thing - its impossible to quantify what a native speaker is. I have worked with students whose parent was German and spoke to them only in that language; also with students who had lived in the country for a while; also with students who now and then visited family there. So such a range of ability. I recently looked into the claim btw that some unis will not accept a native language A level and that seems to apply to I think two unis, and even then it is not clear that it applies across all courses. So I think that is a red herring tbh. Warwick for example exlicitly welcomes it.

(Sorry will reply to more in a bit)

Hmmm. I think I disagree. Native speakers do make it harder for non native speakers to get the high grades. The grade boundaries do change each year, but there is still only a proportion that can get the highest grades. It isn’t a level playing field - and getting worse - everyone with a second language takes it at gcse, and as fewer and fewrer non native speakers take it the ratios are getting worse. Languages are hard and if you need the highest grades may not be the best option. My eldest dc took a language at gCSe and it was their lowest grade (despite working hard), they regretted choosing it - and didn’t learn anything useful as a tourist / small talk either. Youngest refused to take one after seeing this! Lots of language teachers don’t encourage their own kids to take languages anymore.

My DD got a 9 in GCSE french better than a native speaker also in the class. We actually moved to France so it was beneficial for her. She has a problem now as a native English speaker insofar as the university English lecturers mark her down for her English (also 9 at gcse) which is very frustrating for her 🙃

It's just taught so badly in loads of schools. It's been really interesting looking at DC1's French homework in year 7- It's useless, no grammar, just wordsearches etc. They didn't start with understanding etre and avoir or basics like noun gender. She's not keen on me teaching her (I speak OK French and we lived in a francophone country for a few years although the kids were at British schools and just did a couple of hours a week) so I'm supplementing with Duolingo (also no grammar but I'm hoping she'll be amenable to me introducing it in a bit).

I would love her to take it to Gcse and A Level but if the teaching continues to be so bad I'm not sure that will happen. Schools just can't get the teachers.