Please do encourage your non-native speaker DC to take MFL for A level if that’s what they would like

[clary]

MFL is my subject – I studied MFL at A level and university, taught MFL at secondary and now tutor and conduct speaking assessments. This isn’t an ad! – just to show I have some knowledge.

Take-up of MFL at GCSE and very much at A level is sadly (my view) diminishing. There are a number of reasons – it’s seen as difficult or not needed, big focus on STEM (which I am not against FWIW).

One suggested reason is because of all the native speakers who will make it much harder to gain a higher grade (esp at A level). I wanted to help people to see that it’s not an issue, and that if their DC is keen on French or German or Spanish or any other language, they should (please) pursue it in some way, whether that’s qualifications or some independent method (Duolingo, travel, online class).

People worry that grade boundaries are unfairly pushed up by the numbers of native speakers, making it impossible for a non-native to get a good grade. But in fact there is no need to be of native speaker standard to gain a top grade – which the AQA spec clearly states. If you get the marks – and they are there to be got – you’ll get the grade. The GCSE and A level exam are not targeted at the high end of a native speaker ability. It’s not easy, you’ll need to work, but what’s the issue with that?

And are the GBs pushed up? Pretty sure they are not. Polish GCSE, for example, which surely is sat in virtually every case by a native speaker – AQA GCSE GBs for a 9-8-7 last year – 196/173/150; GBs for French (mostly not sat by natives) 195/172/150; Spanish (ditto) 195/170/145. Very very similar. More than 80% of those taking Polish GCSE get a grade 7+ – but you can see, that has not affected the GBs. Nor should it IMHO.

And looking at A level, where German is taken by so few students that the % of native speakers must be higher than for French or Spanish (both taken by three times as many) – GBs for A-star and A, 351/304; French 358/325; Spanish 344/303. A higher mark needed to get a top grade in French, not German, even tho the % of natives in French will be lower.

A colleague said to me last year that their DS was in an A level class with a French native speaker – “of course that was a nightmare as he couldn’t do as well as her” – firstly it’s not a contest – you can both get an A-star! Secondly it can be a massive benefit. I had a friend in my A level French class who was amazing at vocab. She was an asset in class and my colleague’s DC's classmate could be too. Ask them vocab, learn the latest idiom from them, they will have interesting views on the social and political issues you need to discuss. It really is a positive.

Also I want to stress that despite what some ppl believe, being a native speaker is not a shoo-in for an A star at A level. For sure it is a help, I would be foolish to deny that. But I have seen native speakers in speaking assessments who have clearly thought they just need to rock up and boom! top grade. They have presented a woefully inadequate IRP form, and not done their homework on the topics. I had a native speaker candidate last year was emphatic that she didn’t need to have read a book or watched a film, as no one had told her about that element of the exam. These students will not get A stars.

I tell you who will tho – a student (native or not) who has worked hard, researched their IRP topic, learned some good vocab, stats and current views on the 12 topics; a student who has learned how to do to do well in the written exams, including summaries (often the downfall of a native speaker IME) and translation tasks; a student who has read the book, watched the film, read around both and acquired the necessary vocab and structures to write cogently about the themes therein. All of that is available to both native and non-native speakers. Some of the very best candidates I have seen in speaking assessments have been native speakers who had clearly done lots and lots of work, and some of the other best have been non-native, who ditto.

All that said – I really don’t advise A level MFL without a strong grounding in vocab and grammar – which usually equates (other factors aside) to a grade 7 at GCSE.

Anyway what a long post! sorry! but I am interested in others’ views and experiences.

@Ubertomusic I have met quite a few who are the opposite. Dc coached because they know it’s a gimme degree. I know a few boys who were not interested, despite the best efforts of a parent, but they work in France via family connections so certainly speak, read and write well enough.

The other aspect of this is how other learners feel. They feel less good and are put off. I know someone who left a Spanish degree because she felt useless. I suspect she wasn’t but it was the perception of herself. This is keeping dc away from MFLs and the fact that the Brits find them hard. They frequently choose something less hard.

My DC got A star for a non-native MFL A level so where was all that native speakers' advantage?

It's perfectly possible for a non-speaker to get top result in MFL and it's perfectly possible for a native speaker to not do that well.

The Brits find maths hard as well, and history, and sciences, and pretty much everything else? The Chinese are better at studying and delivering exam results in general, is this a valid reason to drop out of all subjects? 😁

@Ubertomusic This is incorrect. Writing never comes naturally, even in native countries it has to be taught for years, just like English to native English speakers in the UK

Please re-read what I did and didn't write.

I didn't mean that the children of native speakers become native speakers by divine inspiration without putting in any effort.

I meant that truly native speakers will have been exposed daily to their language since birth, and will have studied it constantly. In fact, I think that the children of Spanish-speaking parents growing up in an English-speaking country can never be truly Spanish native speakers, but I'll leave that debate to the linguists and education specialists.
Therefore, truly native speakers who are moderately academic, will, by the time they reach 17-18, have mastered their own language so well that spelling should, by then, come naturally to them.
Note what I had written: "truly native speakers" (the children of Spanish speakers brought up in London are NOT native speakers) and "moderately academic" - in every country there are plenty of people who are ignorant, poorly educated, and who speak their own language poorly.

If you are a native English speaker, you are somehow proving your point by showing that even native speakers may struggle with text comprehension :)

Btw, a phenomenon I find fascinating is that there are some grammar and spelling mistakes made by native English speakers more than by reasonably educated foreign speakers, like confusing "its" and "it's"

Well i studied MFLs and got As in all of them. For some of them I was alongside native speakers or children of parents of native speakers and those A grades came a lot easier to them. It is absolutely possible for a non native speaker to get high grades - noone is denying that but it just feels a strange choice for native speakers when there are a tonne of other options for them to improve their spoken language - that doesnt pit them against young people who have struggled through the crappy British language teaching system.

Well done to your DC @Ubertomusic and yes this is very true. More than possible to get a top grade as a non-native. Not easy. But what A level is it easy to get an A star in I mean none I hope.

And yes as I have said more than once, native speaker does not = easy A star with no work. Not even for a true native speaker. I am a native speaker of English and I would not in any way be able to go int a speaking assessment right now and speak at length, using stats and recent facts, about a range of political issues affecting the UK and other English-speaking countries. I would not be able to write a meaningful essay about Oppenheimer or Lord of the Flies without doing some work.

Btw the "this person is a native speaker so may not take A level or a degree in it" is fraught with issues IMHO. As I said, native speaker is a huge range and I have certainly known YP with a French or German parent who had minimal advantage. The name is not always a clue either. It could be from three generations back. My mum was Welsh and spoke Welsh excellently. So - my mother's mother tongue? Not mine tho, I barely speak three words of it.

Ah ok, I was wondering how you defined "truly" native speakers, thanks for clarifying. So only first generation immigrants would qualify 🙂, their children go to British schools so not learning their native languages to the "true" standard, even if they attend Saturday schools, it's not enough to become "truly native", especially at writing. It's not only about spelling either, rather the true freedom of expressing your thoughts and feelings in writing, and even native speakers often lack these skills if they were not writing essays weekly at school.

Yes, there/their etc are taught in Y1 iirc but still...

There is a level of "unfairness" because the children of foreigners who speak another language can have an advantage, no one is denying that.

But I am not sure how much we can regulate against this unfairness.

Being able to pay for tutors, to afford to live in a certain catchment area, or to have parents who work or are experts in certain fields are much greater advantages.

I have a friend who teaches biology at uni and is heavily tutoring and helping her kid for A-levels in chemistry and biology. Yet I'd struggle to say she's doing anything morally wrong

I recently went abroad to a very international meeting - interestingly and sadly out was my first time mixing with people from all over the world at the same time. They ALL spoke English to an exceedingly high level and it was the language they all spoke to each other in to as the "international language". For example, a German and a Ukrainian would converse in English. There was no interest in my (fairly basic) attempts at their languages (and I was mildly ridiculed), they were happy and naturally spoke English.

This is why there is less point learning MFL, not because we're insular, but because everyone else learns English to such a high level that generally very little need to speak anything else.

Learning languages for fun is another matter and I will continue.

DC should understand the advantages for other pupils and if it impacts them. GCSEs Spanish when there are 30% Spanish and Latin Americans in your Year group or French when there are French families just moving from French system or France. Great for speaking and practice but depends on DC study effort and their other subjects workload.

Yes indeed. So I am a qualified teacher of MFL with decent exam knowledge on other subjects too (English mainly) – I am bound to give support as needed to my DC. Even without the subject knowledge, as a teacher and exam tutor and assessor I know my way around an exam board website and can read a mark scheme, even one not in my subject, which I can imagine can be daunting for many.

Add to that the kinds of advantages you list in your post @CForCake and I agree, a level playing field is impossible.

I am not denying (and I never have) that (for example) having a parent who is French and speaking French to them on a daily from childhood will be a benefit in terms of French language exams. But then a friend of mine spent every summer in France. She was not French but her parents chose to or were able to give her a big advantage there.

To limit MFL quals and exclude those judged to be native speakers is a bit of a thin end of a wedge tbh, not to mention being as noted impossible to police.

I don't think there is anything that can be done about the 'unfairness'. I think I was on this thread when Clary started it and I probably explained (haven't looked) about my DD who got an E in her speaking exam and only got her a level grade up to a C by doing well in the other 2 papers.

She's just finished her first year at uni and got a B in her Spanish speaking exam so can finally (in her words) put the horrendous a level speaking exam behind her. But she's lucky that the uni took her with a C.

If a uni required an A or A star (not necessarily in a language) I would seriously reconsider taking a language a level unless you had a real talent for it or you were planning to study languages.

I'm not sure Biology or Chemistry really compare do they? There are plenty of resources that are available to everyone in those subjects but interactive daily exposure to a language is far harder to achieve. Maybe AI will even the field.

I really don't think native speakers will make any difference to a DC's GCSE grade. The level required for a grade 9 is so far from native speaker standard and very much achievable with work by an able student. And as I said, I have seen native speakers not do so well.

If I asked you in your native language "Where did you go on holiday this year?" you would probably answer "France." I have seen an unprepped native give that kind of brief answer in the MFL GCSE speaking exam. Or go off into lots of irrelevant detail and many errs and umms (as in an acutal convo) when what I need is for them to hit the key target elements (opinion, development, tenses, conjunctions, complex language) and we only have two minutes on this topic!

Obvs a well- prepped student, native or not, will not do this but then we are back at the factor of needing to put in the work.

@HawaiiWake True. But note that there is a HUGE difference between children born and brought up here from parents who speak another language, and children "just moving from the French system or France". You are conflating two hugely different categories. Children in the latter group are more likely to be truly native French speakers, which means that they might ace their French exams, but also means they might struggle more than most on their English literature and English language papers.

@NoCareNoFair This is why there is less point learning MFL, not because we're insular, but because everyone else learns English to such a high level that generally very little need to speak anything else.
Learning languages for fun is another matter and I will continue.

Couldn't agree more. I have lived in 3 countries, speak read and write in 3 languages, but I agree with all of the above. The practical usefulness of learning another language, for a native English speaker, is often overestimated.
It is of course crucial if you want to move and work to that country, but it is less useful than many realise if you just want to do business with that country: even if you want to do business with Spain Italy etc from London, many contracts and much documentation are often written in English. if you are the sole representative of your company doing business in Spain, then speaking Spanish will help, but if you are part of a team then everyone will switch to English.

The Financial Times had some articles a while back on "globish", a simplified version of English spoken as a lingua franca by non-native English speakers. many non-native speakers often say that for them it is more difficult to speak to Brits Irish Americans etc, because they don't stick to this simplified version, unlike other non-natives. I also remember reading somewhere that the Dutch, Finnish and Scandinavians tend to speak the best English among non-natives.

Mildly ridiculed? 🤨 That doesn't sound like a polite society?

I very much doubt everyone else learns English to a high standard - certainly not in Latin America, Asia or even some parts of Europe. International conferences are not representative of real life.

The world is changing anyway. I know of quite a few English DC who studied MFL at uni and are moving to Asia for their careers (not in teaching). They may speak English in corporate environment but it's always better to understand local languages too even in the office and the more so in everyday life, not to live in an expat bubble, find local friends, enjoy local culture and not just the ersatz version for tourists and expats.

The children with parents able to help with biology or chemistry were quite happy in my son's class.
My husband was happy to help our son's friends if needed. A few in class had a tutor if parents couldn't help.
It's not only a language issue.

@clary Or go off into lots of irrelevant detail and many errs and umms (as in an acutal convo) when what I need is for them to hit the key target elements (opinion, development, tenses, conjunctions, complex language) and we only have two minutes on this topic!

This SNL skit on "Mexican police" mocks precisely the kind of fake conversation which is expected in these exams, and why it sounds so unnatural to native speakers

This Comedy Central skit mocks how "where is the library?" is one of the most overused phrases when teaching Spanish in the USA. The Comedian also had a role in Narcos, as the son of one of the Cali bosses

@Ubertomusic The world is changing anyway. I know of quite a few English DC who studied MFL at uni and are moving to Asia for their careers (not in teaching).

The US State Department groups foreign languages into these levels of difficulty. This was meant as an indication for their diplomats:

https://2009-2017.state.gov/m/fsi/sls/orgoverview/languages

International meetings are for well educated people.

Yes it is a fake convo, But I mean it's an exam. It's not meant to be real life really. There have to be targets. Same as if you were explaining what you thought of the book Animal Farm. I doubt if you would use PEEL or whatever acronym your school teaches :)

I will always recall a candidate who was a long way from a native speaker (very strong English accent - but that's OK for GCSE) saying at the end of the picture convo (old spec but basically you were trying to say a certain number of developed sentences about the picture) "J'aime la photo parce que c'est vraiment intéressant." I mean she didn't of course. But someone who knew what they were about had told her to say that – two verbs, an opinion and a reason, happy days. A lot of exams at GCSE level anyway are inevitably about box ticking. Across all subjects.

My ex is Swiss and they're all fluent in a few languages, he knows seven. Worked in finance so all contracts and comms were in English. All other languages were hugely useful for developing business relationships all over the world (except Latin but it was useful for learning other European languages 😁 and Japanese as he's not fluent).

I guess Farsi is going to be very useful soon iyswim...

@Ubertomusic except Latin but it was useful for learning other European languages

I disagree. If that were true, Italians, who still study ancient Latin in some of their secondary schools (and even ancient Greek in some cases) would be among the best foreign speakers of English. Instead, they are among the worst. People from Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Finland tend to speak English so much better, despite almost none of them every studying Latin.

I think we can discuss the merits or otherwise of learning a language until the cows come home. Personally I think it's great for all sorts of reasons.

But this thread is about a levels and grades. Anyone on the HE board will have seen all the problems with predicted grades/uni offers/uni places lost due to grade drops so taking a language can feel like a real risk if you are not planning on doing languages at uni, especially when, as everyone on here seems to agree, people in households where the language is spoken do have an advantage.

It is a risk for students aiming for the unis with very high grade requirements and I think we should be honest about it. But I agree I'm not sure anything can be done about it.

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees yeah I agree- it’s a “ don’t hate the player, hate the game” situation whereby young people need to be really strategic and choose their strongest 3 subjects over what might interest them most or be “ more rounded” if they are targeting the top universities/ most in demand courses like economics.

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees but the grade requirements for languages are often lower.i haven't tested this properly yet as DD is just starting A levels but she's interested in MFL courses and Bristol, for example, state ABB as an average offer. I assumed this is because MFL aren't that popular any more.

@Ubertomusic I think languages go in trends. when I was at uni, Japanese was popular and a friend who was studying Arabic was approached by MI5. I assume Arabic/Farsi/Russian will still be on their want list.