Did he cross my boundaries despite saying he just got carried away?

[SofiaJessica4]

I'm a woman in my late 30s and have been dating a guy for a few weeks, and getting pretty close with lots of feelings involved. On our fifth date, he came to my home for dinner and we ended up in my lounge making out.

I'd explicitly stated before previously that I wanted to wait for sex, I'd said that on the day too, and when we started cuddling/kissing. I said I was open to messing around but no more. At one point he was touching me and I got quite overwhelmed, and had to stop as I was on the point of crying (I have some trauma around sex and sensory issues which he knows).

Around this time he took most of my clothes off, and I didn't understand why as sex was not on the table. Anyway, after I'd calmed down from my overwhelm episode, I gave him a hug, lying on top of him but not moving. I then realised he was trying to go for PIV by stealth without me knowing what was going on, when I got off him immediately. I was pretty shocked by what he was doing to be honest.

I'm not in contact with him now, but we had a discussion the next day and he said lines were blurred and he got carried away. He does have ADHD. I think he knew what he was doing and was chancing it. Especially as I'd been practically in tears 5 minutes earlier, I felt it was clear I didn't want to have sex but was happy to touch a bit but no more.

I find his attitudes around sex quite odd to be honest as he said he needs intimacy to "be reciprocal" ie we're either doing full sex, or nothing - but he didn't communicate this beforehand - and also he said some weird stuff about wanting sex 'to prove I liked him'.

I have autism and I get confused when words and actions misalign. His actions to me say, he's unsafe and he intended to cross my boundaries, but his words say different. Would appreciate some input as I'm getting stuck in my head on it. Obviously there's what I think happened, what he thinks and then reality, but the cognitive dissonance is real right now

Wearing a skirt is completely different and you can't be so ignorant to not know that. Can you really not see how lying on top of someone naked could be interpreted as initiating sex?

I think you also need to reflect on your own behaviour in this not just his.

he was touching me and I got quite overwhelmed, and had to stop as I was on the point of crying (I have some trauma around sex and sensory issues which he knows).

Around this time he took most of my clothes off, and I didn't understand why as sex was not on the table. After I'd calmed down from my overwhelm episode, I gave him a hug, lying on top of him but not moving.

I'd been practically in tears 5 minutes earlier, I felt it was clear I didn't want to have sex

Does this describe someone initiating sex? If you genuinely think the guy could be excused for thinking so - well, I don't know what to say. You have dangerous ideas.

It's dangerous to tell an autistic woman who struggles with social cues and communication, and usually sleeps with other autistic men that lying on top of someone naked is okay and not an indication that someone wants sex. The man sounds like an arse with the comment he made afterwards. I'm not here to defend him but OP does need to recognise that her actions didn't align with her words so she can protect herself in the future.

This is not a safe man in either his words or actions. He is coercing you with his words ( that you need to have sex to prove you like him, that women don’t need to be believed when they want to have sex too early on). And with his actions, such as taking your clothes off when you are clear you don’t want sex, and after you have been crying.

You should be proud of yourself to maintaining your boundaries. Quite a few young women would feel so pressured and coerced that they would had sex they did not want. This may be why he says women say they don’t want sex early on but then do have sex. It’s because he did not accept their ‘No’ and kept pushing at their boundaries.

Do not see this man again. He doesn’t respect women and does not respect you.

There’s not a jury in the land that’d convict him if he’d raped you.

You need to reflect on your own actions and boundaries, for your own safety and wellbeing.

In fairness most juries don’t convict even when there’s clear evidence of rape - only 3% are ever convicted.

He’s clearly told her that “no” doesn’t mean “no” in his mind and despite her clearly saying she didn’t want to have sex he kept on going, presumably hoping she’d either change her mind or not feel able to stop. What kind of man undresses a woman who has said no to sex and has been distressed during sexual activity? A rapey, boundary pushing one.

You were extremely naive, but that doesn’t excuse him taking advantage of that. He could tell you were vulnerable and he took that as an opportunity to try to make you do something he knew full well you didn’t want to do.

For future reference, men don’t strip you naked for ‘a comfort hug’. You sound very vulnerable, and I think you might need some counselling / therapy around boundaries if you’re going to date safely.

This man behaved extremely badly. He knew you were distressed and he knew you didn’t want sex, but he didn’t stop. Instead he started removing your clothes and attempted to force you. That is unacceptable.

OP, as far as I can understand, what you are asking is: „was the guy I’m dating so overwhelmed with desire and was reasonable to assume I was too that he removed my clothes while I was distressed and then tried to have sex with me while I was looking for comfort after I have reiterated multiple times I am not ready for sex and he didn’t think to ask.” Or whether it was a calculated thought of: „well we’re alone, close to a horizontal surface, I might as well give it a go”…tbf no one can say for certain - we weren’t there, we can’t be in his head. The fact that he stopped when you asked means he’s not a rapist, it does not mean he’s not consciously pushing boundaries. The fact that he might have „not meant to” doesn’t mean you should see him again, as your sense of justice is compelling you to - because it wouldn’t be fair to punish him if it was just miscommunication and ADHD lack of impulse control- that’s not how this works.
All of this is noise. All that matters is that he made you feel unsafe and doubt your agency. If you really like him otherwise, and are looking for a reason to give him another chance - do, in public, see if he appologises, see if he wants to learn where he went wrong, whether he’s willing to learn about all the consent intricacies mentioned by pps on your post - it will tell you a lot. But on the other hand, if I’m right, and you’re trying to justify to yourself why you don’t owe him another date - you don’t need to - you can just not fancy seeing someone for whatever reason. And honestly, no-one gets so overwhelmed by desire towards a distressed person that they can’t pause to ask if maybe sex would make the other person feel better? (And if he assumed you might not actually know what’s best for you that tells you a lot too).

Considering you were crying its v concerning his next move was to push sex

the fact he “needs” sex and you need to “prove” your love is also massive 🚩

stay away

He said something to me like "women often say they won't have sex early on, or 'I make a man wait' but then reality is different"

No, no no op. Run like the wind.

I'm sorry you are upset, and of course no should mean no. BUT...... I do wish women would stop being so naive about the nature of men, and how giving mixed signals will mean that the lines get blurred.

At the end of the day, you invited a man into your home and allowed him to remove all of your clothes, until you were naked. You also allowed him to touch you intimately. You may have been saying no to sex, but your actions looked like the game might be on, with you wanting to appear as if you were saying no, but getting carried away. The lines were so blurred that you couldn't even see them anymore. I would say that what he did next is no surprise to me, but maybe that's because I'm old and cynical?

Yes, you should be able to trust that a man would keep asking "can I?", at each step, but that's not how men are wired. It's like putting a fox into the chicken coup, and trusting that the fox won't try to eat the chicken, because you told him not to.

I love men, I have a lovely husband and a lovely son, but let's not kid ourselves - they are sexually wired in a very different way to women.

I would stop inviting men back to your home, stop getting naked with men until you are ready to have sex, and read The Scorpion and the Frog fairy tale.

I'm sure that some people will say that this is victim blaming, but the only way to keep yourself safe, is to not place yourself in harm's way. We shouldn't have to think like this, but as women, we absolutely must.

What kind of a woman lays naked on top of a man who’s sexually aroused, when she doesn’t want to have sex?

If he’d raped her, he’d be in the wrong, of course, but there are many points at which she could have stopped the situation. OP has incredibly poor boundaries and judgement and as a result is feeling unhappy. For her own benefit she needs to stop acting so stupidly.

I wonder how often men like this allow other men to get carried away with their bodies. Something tells me the lines would be pretty fucking sharp in that scenario.

And just to add, before anyone screams NAMALT, of course this is true, but because we don't know whether the man we are getting naked with IS like that or not, best to assume the worst.

Reciprocal doesn't mean full sex or nothing. It simply means giving each other pleasure. But that needs to be mutually consensual. And frankly if you wanted to touch him or give him a handjob but you don't want anything in return surely he should be satisfied with that? I'm not saying you should do that of course. You should only do what you feel comfortable doing.

Of course he must be very inexperienced or quite sinister if he thinks he could just slip his knob in without you noticing. Absolute mug.

I'm glad you're not seeing him again. He seems like a bit of a wrong 'un.

It sounds to me like he was very deliberate in pushing through your boundaries. He can tell himself the story that it was all very confusing and a mistake but I don’t think it was. He was focused on what he wanted and not thinking of you. My DH has ADHD and nothing leven close to what you have described has happened in over 15 years.
Well done for discussing it with him the next day, I don’t imagine that was easy, and I’m glad he is no longer part of your life. If it’s going round in your head that you did something ‘wrong’, I really don’t think you did.

I think it’s important to read all of the OPs posts before offering advice, as there is (I think) a misunderstanding of the timeline.

In the first post the OP mentions that her clothes came off at the time she was upset, however in a later post the OP says that her clothes came off before she was upset, and at a time she was actively participating.

When asked to stop he stopped. He did not remove her clothes whilst she was upset.

The OP was not crying, she said she felt overwhelmed.. so all these people saying it’s a disgrace that he took her clothes off whilst she was crying, are doing everyone a dis-service.

Then the OP lay naked ontop of him, and he attempted to have sex with her, which she said no to and he stopped. He should never have tried to, and that was wrong, the OP had told him “no sex”

Go by the behaviours not by the sweet talk. Sorry this happened to you, sounds grim.

This is a really unkind comment to someone who is feeling vulnerable and seeking help. I don’t agree with your points at all but if you want to make them, there is no need to frame things as ‘what kind of woman’ and ‘stupidity’.

As an aside, the points you make are the ones that most defendants make when pleading not guilty to rape. All the responsibility on the woman and nothing on them.

This. Doesn’t excuse him, but what were you thinking!

It’s in response to another comment asking what kind of man he was. IMO they’re both at fault and should not meet again as it sounds like it’ll end badly for one or both of them.

he said some weird stuff about wanting sex 'to prove I liked him'

This is so manipulative. In future, if you hear the word 'prove', bin them off.

I'm sorry you had that experience. I'd just like to say a few words about some other stuff.
Autism ironically makes you see things clearly enough but I think you'll agree that the difficulty lies in then having to decide how bad you need to deem that which you're perceiving. Not least because you had enough moments in your life where you had to assume that you were the problem.
You also don't want to believe the thing you're seeing. If it's dodgy enough it'll almost feel cynical. Pattern recognition for that reason is a blessing and a curse. I'll try to make it a bit more of a blessing and less of the curse, hopefully.

If you feel frequently pressured, bin them off. If you feel pressured after being made to feel excessive guilt or shame, bin them off. If you feel a lot of confusion as a result of their actions, bin them off.
Guilt, shame, confusion. Those sensations are your allies when it comes to spotting people who are best avoided in something like a romantic scenario.

You will be asked to feel 'some' guilt and shame as a result of interactions in an otherwise healty relationship too, occasionally.
The difference is that with someone manipulative there'll be a an air of 'too much'. Anger. Eagerness. Regularity. An almost desperation to get you to accept all the shame and all the blame. It'll feel ..manufactured.

You'll be able to feel the difference because it'll often happen in a scenario where you were the one who started a conversation about something YOU were unhappy about yet somehow ended up feeling even more unhappy due to being asked to feel way too badly about something they've done wrong.

If you already knew all this then I apologize. Although it never hurts to be reminded of something. Just a few more tools in the toolbox that might help in the future. x

You were naked and laid on top of him - that’s quite a sexual move and it’s understandable that he’d thought you were initiating sex.
I would have assumed this if a man did the same to me.

If I was you, I would have put my clothes back on before cuddling him.
I have been in a situation where we ran away with ourselves and clothes came off etc and then I stopped but I put my clothes back on and then we just cuddled.
I can’t imagine doing it whilst I was still undressed.

I think the fact that you are questioning this, suggests that you’re not ready for a relationship just yet.

I am like him as I don’t see the point in foreplay or messing around if it doesn’t lead to sex - I’d rather have nothing and just wait until we’re ready for sex.

I do think you’re sending him mixed messages and it’s unfair to then accuse him of crossing the boundaries.

Be careful, I agreed with a comment like this a few hours ago, but it got deleted