MARCH 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

have now set up a new thread as the previous one is now full.
This long runnning thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.
The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
I started with this book and found it really useful.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."
Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.
Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."
6

Oh wow, just realising this is what makes it so painful with my mum. It’s because she can seem normal and even nice - and can sometimes actually act in a nice or kind way - so it’s so easy to think that I must have imagined it when she’s horrifically cruel and abusive, it just doesn’t seem to add up. And of course she has always driven this home completely, that I’m insane/unbalanced/disturbed and that anything I remember is either a lie or a total fiction that I somehow hallucinated because I’m so disturbed, or that there’s a kernel of truth but I have hugely exaggerated and really she was being quite normal and reasonable…

It’s because of her seemingly nice parts that I held on for so long to the idea that she is not so bad, that she loves me really, that one day the relationship will be mended.

It’s only after her truly awful behaviour while I was bereaved, along with how she was immediately happy and cheered up when her husband died and she inherited money, with not even a pretence at any kind of grief, as well as horrendous attacks on other family members when they were at their lowest and most vulnerable time, that I’ve really seen clearly that she truly doesn’t care at all about any other person, and it’s not actually something she’s capable of, that part is missing!

“Greek writer Aristotle, said that a thing is more than just a pile of pieces. When you put all parts of a human together, it creates a living, feeling person who can dream and love.”

I think some parts are just missing, so the person isn’t complete. Enough to function but not fully.

That’s so true. She mothered those fucking cats, but couldn’t mother her children adequately instead she emotionally and physically abused them.

So, we were due to complete in the house TODAY, I’ve rung round cat centres (no room because people are selfish twats and don’t neuter their cats).

We’ve phoned the estate agent who said it was a ‘novel’ situation. 😂 we’re just laughing about it, especially at the idea of phoning Twat Brother to come down from Scotland to pick up a feral cat and her four five week old kittens. I’m sure as he’s Father of the Year he would do that, especially as he promised - until he realised no £ was going his way - “will do anything you need, mate.” 🙄 No help over the funeral, death admin etc. He didn’t even come to the funeral as he was ‘having an operation’. Right. Might post them - joking as he doesn’t care for anyone else but himself as he’s a sociopath.

I totally understand your fear about inherited toxicity. I think it’s not genetic, although I do believe in genetic trauma and the body keeps the score as Mr Monkey’s health is terrible and IBS often relates to CPTSD.

I think being exposed to the BS of toxic parenting means you’re inevitably damaged by it and you either repeat the patterns or do your very best to behave differently or be numb. Toxic Brother repeated the patterns, Slave Son numbed himself with booze and was crushed by The Hag and Mr Monkey is the kindest person to the extent of buying a litter tray, litter liners and kitty litter today. I’m surprised he didn’t buy toys and top range cat food.😂

Is your MIL still alive? I’m glad mine is six foot under. She was absolutely horrible.

Yes she is still alive, and in great health. 😂 My H is also incredibly kind but he isn’t damage free 😞. He managed god knows how to develop empathy, he’s never used a single person in his life (but he has been used by past girlfriends and at work he is still used). I don’t want to blow my own trumpet as I’m not perfect but he is lucky to not have got himself into an abusive relationship with a lady. I just wish I’d inherited a nice family to fit into to make memories for the kids and us. It makes me sad at times because life is too short for all of this nonsense.

@Eeriefairy He really does sound similar. I've learned not to believe a word younger brother says about girlfriends. From the beginning he always likes to tell people negative things about them (or at least things he clearly thinks are negative), almost as though he is setting up reasons why they are at fault if things go wrong. I think he's also learned that this fed in to our parents' narrative of the boys being wonderful but being let down by people they tried to help.
Re alcoholism- I do agree that it is an illness. But as you say, not an excuse for the harm done to others. In Older Brother's case his nasty behaviour started a long time before the alcoholism and I suspect if anything part of the reason he started to drink more was that he realised 'I was drunk' could be used as an excuse and people would assume he didn't mean to do the things he did. It also meant that people around him tended to be drinking too, so were easier to manipulate and less likely to have a clear recollection of what happened (or at least he could claim they didn't). I know (very sadly, as some lovely people I have known have battled with alcoholism) that it is incredibly difficult to beat this addiction but even when he claimed to be trying to stop he would never commit to any sort of programme or accept any formal help. He managed to persuade family that somehow this wouldn't work for him and if they didn't let him just cut down and stop his own way it would be worse. I strongly suspect that he didn't really want to stop, partly because he liked the idea of being able to do whatever he liked in the knowledge that those close to him would just tell him it was OK and not his fault.

@formalwellies I had an alcoholic sister in law from a previous relationship (very narc family with a down trodden mum and nasty dad. She drank because she could do what she liked, no one could reach her, she didn’t respond to help because people like her are above it. Nobody taught her right from wrong because she was golden and everything she did was right. If you couldn’t handle her it was your problem. That’s why she is alone now and very messed up health wise. Sad, if she had been taught she could be wrong she might be ok but they can’t handle any criticism even if they hurting themselves. During my relationship with her brother she had several relationships and they all left. My ex ended up financially supporting her which inflated his hero ego. They all seem to club together.

I just read something very interesting about narc mothers and their children and enmeshment. Why my H views his mum the way he does and can’t see that she isn’t very nice to me. Some good bits….

“Your husband has had a lifetime learning to interpret his mother’s needs as sincere. When you name the pattern, you’re asking him to revise that lifetime of interpretation. It doesn’t happen in one conversation”

”Murray Bowen, MD, described differentiation as the capacity of a person who grew up in an enmeshed or emotionally fused family system to develop a clear, stable sense of self. Including the ability to maintain their own values and make decisions as an adult, while staying in meaningful relationship with the family of origin without being organised by it.”

“The narcissistic MIL problem, in its full structural form, isn’t a communication problem. It’s not solved by a better conversation template or a firmer limit-setting script. If you go into this thinking the solution is better phrasing, you’ll exhaust yourself on tactics without shifting the underlying architecture.”

“The covert narcissism in this picture also matters systemically because it’s intergenerational. What Bowen would call the family’s level of differentiation passes across generations not through genes but through the rational patterns the family have normalised.”

Basically said that their children have kept the primary bond and they are stuck with the mum as the centre of themselves. It’s a relational structure issue. The son should have replaced his mother by himself and that’s the job of a healthy mother, to let go.

@formalwellies You’re right, that’s probably exactly why they do it - so they have built in future blame. She’s got bipolar/whatever mental health issues, she takes drugs, she’s from a rough background etc. He has a lot of “therapist speech” and accuses his girlfriends of “deflecting” etc when they call him out on something (the irony). And when they’ve had enough of his abuse and gaslighting he can say they went crazy/were abusive because of whatever issues he’s made sure to tell you about. And when you haven’t had much involvement and don’t know each other well (because you’ve been kept at arms length), you won’t know any better. Well, that’s his plan. I always think “IF she did that, you would have deserved it.”

Not that I have much contact with him at all these days. I think my DH might be ready to give up on him now too. He’s starting to see he isn’t interested in changing. He just gets a little bit better at hiding his behaviour/finding someone more vulnerable to his manipulation.

The “I was drunk/you were drunk” card is one of the reasons I no longer drink. They weren’t really doing him any favours by making excuses for him. Interestingly, my parents tried to talk me out of stopping drinking. It sounds like you’ve had a very long journey with your family.

@Newsunflower it makes it feel personal doesn’t it, but it isn’t. It’s all superficial stuff, the rest of it. I spoke to my mum today. She tells me about her hobbies, worries about the wildlife in this drought - like a nice person. She didn’t ask how I’m coping with the suicidal feelings I told her about in January, or the fact I’m trying to help my DD heal from SA. She tells me about the lovely plans she’s made with the rest of the family for the weekend (including the person, albeit, child, who abused my DD). On my parenting course I learned a lot about how this child has harmed my DD. He could have told people what was happening to him, as he is a victim himself. But instead, he became a perpetrator, coercing my DD into doing things she was saying no to. They know all this. Nobody mentions it. I am expected to smile or enquire about their holiday plans. Or sit there and listen to the details of my mum’s day at work. But it’s not personal. It’s not like she’d be asking anyone else about their difficult feelings. She’d just be telling them about her hobbies and how worried she is about the wildlife in this drought, and her holiday plans and her day at work 🤷‍♀️

If she didn’t seem normal or nice at least some of the time, you’d never put up with it. It’s part of the playbook.

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster - thank you to everyone who shares on here, I’ve found it incredibly helpful and affirming to see I’m not alone!

I suspect my mum has narcissistic traits, my dad and brother enable her completely. I’ve always had a difficult relationship with them but since having my first baby things have got much worse (I know that’s textbook!).

I asked them last year to go to therapy with me and they said yes then backtracked, said yes again then pulled out etc. I gave up on the idea. 6 months later my dad finds a therapist and wants to try again, and claims he never pulled out in the first place. Against my better judgement I agreed, met with the therapist individually to have an initial session. The therapist mentioned my dad was paying which I was relieved by as he hadn’t mentioned money to me and I was waiting for a difficult conversation (they love using money as control!).

I’ve now had an email from my mum asking me to split therapy costs with them.

I don’t want to do this. I’ve spent thousands of pounds over the years doing my own therapy to try and understand my family/childhood. I don’t have any faith in this family therapy working, but wanted to tell myself I’d tried everything. I see this request as a control thing/way for them to reiterate that this is all my fault/show how angry with me they are.

Does anyone have any advice/scripts they could share please? I think I would still be willing to go if they pay but also starting to feel like giving up on them entirely.

Thank you all so much

I am home now. I was just looking back at my behaviours. Does being we people and not having your needs met, even as adults just make you behave differently. The past week I was not myself.

Yes, people in abusive relationships will change over time Must and sometimes it happens quickly. They lose their sense of self and confidence in themselves and in their own judgement of what's right and what's wrong, due to the emotional abuse. She's literally harming you with her presence.

Do we have an in built sense for someone who is low in empathy and emotionally unsafe? I wonder because I was hurt very badly in my previous relationship is this is something I’ve developed or is it a safety mechanism we have?

It's a safety mechanism we all should have, but it can be missing in those who've grown up around abuse because they've normalised the abuse, so their idea of "normal and correct" is way off and because of that they can't keep themselves safe, ending up in multiple toxic relationships. It's why so many of us here have realised we've had toxic friends/partners etc too. Equally, once you're truly enlightened to it, you can often spot it very quickly. Don't doubt yourself.

I have a real physical reaction to people who have low empathy, I feel unsafe around them and I’m not sure this is normal? I don’t need this relationship with my MIL but I feel funny being around her.

It's totally normal. They aren't safe to be around, you're not irrational to feel that way. You should pay attention to this instinct and act on it (by removing yourself from that person's presence) to keep yourself safe.

Shattered Dreams a 5yr old is supposed to be wrapped up in themselves. The narc is pissed off because the 5yr old isn't centering them, which is what they want everyone to do. Even adults don't need to centre someone else in their own lives. It's not selfish to put yourself first and center yourself in your own life, they're not the same thing.
Selfish is doing whatever you want without considering or caring about how it affects anyone else and often means doing unreasonable behaviour as a result. It's ok to put your own health and wellbeing first in daily life even if that inconveniences someone else. The difference is, a friend will put themselves out for someone occasionally when the situation warrants it eg an emergency not their fault or going to a birthday event when you'd rather stay home, even if it causes them some issues like childcare or lack of sleep, a selfish person won't even consider putting themselves out for anyone ever because there's nothing in it for them (unless there is, then they might).
The 5yr old isn't hostile or selfish or whatever other nasty things the narc may be saying about the child. I wouldn't let the narc around the child, it'll be a toxic relationship whereby the child is only acceptable if they're dancing to the narc's tune and that's not a helpful thing for a person to grow up learning.
I wouldn't reply to the letter, you don't owe them a reply, do what's best for you. Especially if they've written to you because you've blocked them on other communication methods, that shows a person not respecting a boundary and means they don't deserve being given the time of day.

Black Cloud my entire family is on an information diet just so that nobody can tell any information to the narcs. I can't trust people who like narcs not to be persuaded to give them information, even if I've asked them not to.
Also I don't want to put people in a position of having to keep secrets, feels kinda toxic and I know from experience that it's stressful trying to remember who you're allowed to tell what to, so I just don't give any information about my life that I'm not happy for the narcs to know. The secret stops with me, which is fair when it's my secrets.
It means my relationship with the others is a bit superficial but that's the price I pay for being in contact with people who are themselves in contact with narcs. It's that or I be NC with them too and I'm trying not to do that if I can help it because they're nice enough people and they're my family.
I keep all other aspects of my life completely separate from family of origin, no crossover at all so they can't accidentally get any information off friends/partners/work etc.

My situation update, I didn't get hoovered, it wasn't a hoovering, but I did get messed around a bit and saw some entitled behaviour from this person which I'll be keeping an eye on. A bit wanting their own way and tries to ambush into going along with it, but does respond appropriately to boundaries if the ambush is picked up in time, so I don't think another narcissist, just strong willed and with possibly some manipulation traits. Which is traits in not keen on, so we'll see.

Parent I think it's one of those "No, is a complete sentence" situations. Don't try to take responsibility for managing this situation, it wasn't created by you. You laid out your cards. Your parents backtracked for whatever reason, which is rude to mess you around.

I'd be suspicious of this therapist because have your parents changed their mind thinking they've found someone "to bring you into line"? I wouldn't do the therapy with someone who's focus is keeping families together, that's a bias that'll see you encouraged to put up with crap and abuse. You need someone who accepts that some families are better off not being in each others' lives.

So is just reply that no, you won't be splitting therapy costs because that's not what was originally agreed. Just that. Don't get into justifying it beyond that. Don't take responsibility for "fixing" the situation or any negative emotions they're having, it's not your responsibility.

Sit back and await their reaction. If you continue with therapy, definitely bring it up to the therapist that this occured and your parents reaction to your "no".

Have the conversation calmly in front of the therapist about who is going to pay for it and whether to continue, abuse thrives in secrecy and the therapist is there to help you all communicate better.

It's supposed to destabilise you, your mum's message, firstly your dad's comments to therapist so you're thinking you're alright financially, then mum pulling the rug from under your feet. It's designed to cause stress and upset (and possibly to make you appear unstable or money-grabbing to the therapist). It also shows they're not working as a cohesive unit themselves (or at least that if they are then they're both bastards, because this was deliberate towards you if it wasn't a disagreement between them. There's no way they come out of this looking good).

I doubt very much that your parents will behave reasonably or back down, so hopefully the therapist will soon see what's going on and what they're really like. Or else they'll try to look good by going back to the original agreement saying you misunderstood etc, in which case you all (including the therapist) are at least now solid on who's paying.

If your parents do start twisting things and using the therapist to get at you at any point for any reason, you'll need to be prepared to end the sessions. It's why people say never to have joint therapy with your abuser, because so many times it's just another opportunity to abuse you and to use the therapist, manipulating then to be a flying monkey too.

It's all just part of the smear campaign. When nothing changes, they'll go around saying "how they paid for therapy you wanted and needed but it didn't work and aren't they sorry little victims to have such a nasty ungrateful child despite them trying everything?". Except being decent people, they could have tried that.

@SamAndAnnie Ive worked it out. I’m not incomplete, I have managed (god knows how) to secure a fully complete sense of self. The relationship dynamic me and her son has is different. I have friends outside of us, we are different but we like being together.

Some of the comments from the holiday I found confusing but now they make sense. Comments around the fact the other family do not ever visit anyone unless all 4 are present. I said that’s strange, I will take the kids on my own to visit family. The dad said that’s because they are a “family”. Their kids do not have friends, they don’t go on any school trips. The FIL said that’s because they are “family”, they do stuff together. I thought it was a dig at my family not being “family” enough. But now I understand this is enmeshment. It’s why I can’t form a bond with any of them. Those kids are being denied the opportunity to form individual identities outside of the family unit. That’s why the SIL does not leave the family home on her own. It’s the sign of having a narc in the head and a co-dependent partner. The SIL is only secure within this unit and the kids are becoming the same. It’s a learned dynamic that’s being re-hashed. It’s not the type of dynamic that I come from. The son has got a partner who didn’t develop a sense
of self before him and they have enmeshed into one. It’s why they put down my history, when I talk about moving out, going to university, living in different cities etc. Growing an independent sense of self.

I don’t understand why this happens or why
they don’t think a child can experience the world and friends but still love their parents as I did. None of what I experienced made me hate my family.

@SamAndAnnie thank you so so much for replying! So clarifying to see it written out like that because yes it’s totally not an accident that they’ve waited till we’ve started the process before this came up.

I said to my partner before the first individual session that I highly doubted I’d ever actually get in a room with my mum and the therapist - I assumed she’d find some reason to pull out but naively didn’t think it’d be because of money.

The therapist so far doesn’t seem too focused on staying together at all costs - she was very affirming of lots of the boundaries I’ve put in place - but I’m aware I don’t know what she’s said to them yet.

I messaged her when I got their email and she said she’d be happy to talk to me about costs and ‘if’ I start paying she’ll accept any amount I’m able to afford - so I definitely sense she can tell this is a change of plan.

I’m automatically blaming myself because I didn’t actually clarify with my parents directly about money, just with the therapist - but I know that’s their voice in my head not mine! I think for now I’ll reply as you said to say that no, I wasn’t expecting to pay because the therapist said they were paying. And then I guess if they don’t want to pay we’ll cancel the next sessions.

Thank you again xx

@Parenttherapy it isn’t really about the money, that’s just the latest excuse. Probably the yo-yoing about going last year was her trying to pull out as well.

It sounds like you’ve managed to grow up to be outside their weird dynamic. So that’s a good start for you!

@MustIgo I had this growing up. Let’s say our surname was “Smith” - there were things that made a “Smith” and things that weren’t “Smith” and so you’d have to be whatever “Smith” meant or you weren’t “one of us”. We still had our friends and went on school trips - that part is pretty extreme of your in-laws - but there was a kind of “fitting in with family is more important than fitting in with others” mentality.

@SamAndAnnie well done not getting hoovered! It sounds like you have very good boundaries. I get panicky thinking my family are going to try and do this to me, but so far they’ve seemed pretty happy to have barely any contact with me and not try to push anything any further.

The therapist sounds pretty good so far Parent. Interesting that she's not pulling the plug if they don't pay the full amount too and is willing to take a discounted rate for your share. Reckon she's got the measure of them already. They think they're so clever but reveal themselves in myriad small ways. Money as the reason for not going makes perfect sense in the circumstances, it's something they can blame you for instead of having to be the ones admitting they're unwilling to go. They must have also had a first session if they've discussed payment? Maybe they didn't enjoy being asked to reflect on themselves in any way! 😉 It's like "divorce" therapy, you can still go even if they don't and all you discuss is the best way to "break up" with them.

Eerie I've just realised mine doesn't that too! Narc1 kept talking about "our" this and "us" that, as if I shared the same opinion on whatever-it-was, as if the whole room did. Narc2 talked constantly about "suitable careers" and earning potential, even to pre-teens and their little friends, the judgement is strong and so so obvious when they decide if someone is a "suitable" friend for their DC or not. Needless to say my job/lifestyle doesn't cut it! I'm definitely not "one of them" in any way and it became more and more apparent I'm hated for it.

I feel I’ve “dirtied the pool” with my otherness! I’ve made mistakes in my past, I’ve grown from them and I own them. My parents back when I was young let me get on with it. I chose some bad partners and I’ve learned and now made a better choice (well he is decent). You could not say I was perfect, far from it and I don’t hide it because it’s makes you who you are. I have a bit of an illness that requires adaptations sometimes. I’m
upfront and communicate what I need but they don’t acknowledge it. I think that’s the difference, they aren’t perfect either but they hide it well. Some shit is going down with the brother’s family unit but it’s completely hidden from sight. It is sad really, if someone is hurting from something then you’d want to help them, you’d want them to feel comfortable talking but they don’t do that, it’s such a closed unit. It’s hard when you are open to be met with all these walls.

@SamAndAnnie @Eeriefairy My FOO also have certain things that 'we' do/like/think. Fairly serious things that most people would feel strongly about are excused/denied but challenging 'our' way over things that most people would just see as personal preference is a problem. Mum's extended family do this quite a lot too so I can see that it's probably what she's grown up with and I am determined that I won't do the same. The trouble is that having grown up believing that some things are simply the 'right' way and others the 'wrong' way and having it so firmly enforced it has taken me a very long time to see it for what it is and to stop feeling an underlying unease when I do something 'wrong'. I remember when my DH and I took our DC on their first overseas holiday my parents were up in arms, saying it was irresponsible, would be far too hot to be safe, we could end up somewhere unsafe/drugged/robbed etc. I expected this, because they had a lot to say about another relative doing the same thing so I had been very wary of telling them but of course the DC were excited and wanted to tell everyone. It was just a package holiday to Spain in a family friendly resort. From their reaction you would have expected I was planning on taking them back packing through a war zone. A big part of their argument was simply that this is just not what 'we' do. 'We' have UK holidays until the teenage years at least so this reckless behaviour must have come from the irresponsible influence of DH and his family. Meanwhile one brother was getting drunk and smashing up his house whilst his children were trying to sleep and the other had just lost his job because he taking class A drugs and regularly forgot to go in or was incapable of working. The former was dismissed as an over-reaction from his wife (who was almost certainly at least partly to blame for him being 'stressed') and the latter was covered up and excused as a reaction to him being too clever for the job and bored. It was instilled in me that I must not mention anything about my brothers' behaviour to anyone else as this is 'our way'.

The things that must be done 'our way' are strange and make no real sense. As well as certain political positions that we should all conform to, there are certain foods, TV shows, types of clothing, types of car, furnishings, hairstyles etc that 'we' apparently just don't do and others that are 'our' way.

Thank you @SamAndAnnie and @Eeriefairy, totally right that money is the best excuse they can come up with for now!

They’ve had one initial session with her but she’s suggested more before we all meet together - I suspect because she saw me after them and learned a lot they’ll have tried to hide 😅 so I think this reaction might be because they’re pissed off about the delay to the group sessions. I still think they’re anticipating the sessions being telling me to get over myself and come for Sunday lunch again whilst the therapist nods along!

Also hard agree to everyone with the ‘this is the family way’ - my mother still after nearly 40 years says ‘do you really not like strawberries?!’ almost every time I see her. And once when I dared to ask if they had mayo in the house she said ‘we’re not a mayo family’. And they wonder why I feel so isolated and excluded!

@formalwellies and @SamAndAnnie Absolutely, our way or the wrong way. The funny thing for me personally, is that my parents wouldn’t make a secret of their mistakes, and they wouldn’t seem to judge others for theirs either. They had lots of friends that had real issues while I was growing up. Some of them in & out of prison types (but most of them nice people), and my parents were very accepting and understanding (without condoning criminal behaviour, but sort of excusing or explaining it with that person’s unstable upbringing for example).

But then my dad in particular has been really harsh with my DH who hasn’t done anything wrong except things like not liking the Beatles, or being “overly generous” or wanting to work hard and not take breaks when they think he should. And all this has seemed to be part of the “our way or the wrong way” thing. BUT one time he started an argument with my DH over a political belief that my dad himself has held for my entire life - so wtf?

I think it’s similar to what you’ve been describing @MustIgo that my DH is not under my dad’s control, and therefore must be treated like he doesn’t belong? Because I can’t really explain it any other way. If it was just “our way or the wrong way”, why would he have still had a problem even when my DH was saying something my dad would usually agree with?

@Parenttherapy this is another one my dad does to my DH! “How can you not like strawberries?!” In a properly pissed off tone. No matter how many times he’s been told my DH ate too many strawberries when we he was a kid strawberry picking, as his mum took them and dumped there for an entire day every summer. And my dad has things he doesn’t like for similar reasons 🤪

I think we just haven’t had the “special” training as someone mentioned ages ago as partners of those who’ve been raised by a narc. We just don’t understand wtf is going on. One minute they fucking amazing to that person, they off with that person, they on with her but they off with me. They appear to morally be god but then in glimpse they nasty as anything, you just can’t keep up.

who is this person? Are they safe aren’t they safe, you just can’t put your finger on who they are.

Re 'Our Way' and partners being treated as 'outsiders'. I think there's something in @MustIgo 's comment about them not having had the 'special training' of growing up in a dysfunctional family. My family will quickly accept new people, provided that they at least appear to agree with them on everything and do things 'our way'. But the rules of what 'Our Way' is are tricky so friends/partners etc will easily show themselves to be 'Not Our Sort'. For example, my FOO tell people that 'we' enjoy and encourage political debate. Of course, what they really mean is that they like to loudly echo 'Our' views and congratulate themselves on all being Very Clever and Right. They consider themselves to be champions of the Working Class (despite being rather middle class and actually a bit snooty about where they live etc) and before he learned better DH got in to a discussion with them about the challenges facing working class children in education. DH is from a very working class background, the first member of his extended family to gain any academic qualifications and now works with children in a disadvantaged area. Whilst agreeing with most of what my family said, he very politely disagreed with a few comments and was not prepared for the intensity of the reaction. He was told that he knows nothing about the subject and cannot consider himself to have been brought up working class because his parents own their own home and both worked. Brother became aggressive and called him stupid etc. We ended up leaving. When we next saw them they acted like nothing had happened and have since claimed that no such conversation happened.

To update on my own situation, I have maintained extremely low contact with GB2 (the living brother) and have refused to do any more than I currently do in relation to Mum's care. I still feel that given her vulnerability I can't bring myself to walk away as I should have done decades ago. But I've come to the point where I will agree to help her organise proper care if she decides she will accept it, and will deal with important medical matters/admin that I know GB2 would mess up. But I will not be caught up in providing day to day care myself and anything I do will be on my terms, not GB2's. I am gradually pulling back from the 'hands on' help that I had been doing. The most frustrating thing for me is that if GB2 would accept that she needs proper professional care and more suitable accommodation it would be possible to organise so that both of us could do nice things with her but neither of us would be overwhelmed with the demands. It might even be possible to try to put aside the past for the few years she has left and have some semblance of an actual relationship of sorts. But currently (and I can't see it changing), GB2 is hell bent on getting his hands on her house and claiming to be the perfect son caring for his lovely mum. So shuts down any discussion about other options and convinces her she would not be looked after properly by carers etc. He remains angry that I won't facilitate this by actually doing all the tricky stuff. I am fairly convinced (based on comments and experience of how he has worked in the past) that he plans to move his family to her place 'to care for her', get her to change her will to leave him the house ('only fair since it will be their home too') then when Mum's needs increase claim he had no idea it would happen/can't cope etc and say that Mum doesn't want to be in a home so I need to move her in with me. That may sounds extreme and even paranoid but I have seen too much of his manipulation in the past. Of course, there is absolutely no way I will go along with that. But it's all part of the reason that I currently feel I need to back away and be clear to social services, health care professionals etc that I absolutely will not be a hands on carer or live with Mum at any stage. I suspect everyone who has seen GB2's 'My Mum comes first' act will think I am a terrible, selfish daughter but I am accepting that their view of me is unimportant.

I wonder if what we as partners are experiencing is the same conditions their kids did. It’s confusing, it’s isolating and cold outside of them. I can only imagine how this would feel to a small dependent child and how they would adapt to simply feel safe and connected to their parent. I think my H has had his emotional safety severed from them and has made his world safe by filling it full of stuff. He left home so young and did his best to be independent and succeed but he is childlike still in many ways. He is softer and gentler than his brother who is ruthless. It’s sad to think he had to do this and figure it out.

@MustIgo there’s definitely something in that, but I never fit in with MiL and my DH has never been accepted by my dad, so maybe it’s the specific family rules you have to know inside out or grow up with to think it’s normal? Rather than just <replace narc here> if you know what I mean? I mean, I don’t think my dad is a narc, just a bit of a controlling, emotionally immature man, who had his own problematic upbringing.

The weird thing about the argument I mentioned was say, my dad has always been a supporter of the concept of welfare, then was arguing against exactly that when my DH said he supported it. He got really angry about it and said he couldn’t sit there and listen to this, and left my house. I heard from my DSis at the time that he felt he shouldn’t have stormed out, but he never mentioned it to me again so I’m none the wiser now what his reasoning was for arguing against his own previously (vigorously) stated beliefs.

@formalwellies you don’t sound paranoid to me, you’re probably exactly right. Of course, there’s nothing you can do about what people think of you or your brother’s perfect son act, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them at least see through it - I bet some of them have seen it before.