What will it take for the Government to enact welfare reform?

[Schlossadler]

What has to break, before the Government is finally willing to enact welfare reform?

Feel free to quote where I said the disabled were freeloaders.

I'll wait.

What do you mean, stopping pensions? That's the biggest bill

Obviously. But it is the governments biggest revenue source. Followed by NI contributions….but they are also allocated to NHS and welfare….can you see where this is going?
As a country we have an awful lot more to pay for. Education? Defence? Infrastructure?

Well said.

For me, I’d do parenting classes in schools for children aged around 12. The biology around wanting a child to love is understandable. The reality of actually having a tiny person to look after is very different! Show them the reality, show them it will not “fix” what is missing, give them alternatives. Therapy, education, possibilities, a different future.

As the closed cycle nature of parents caring for children and then children caring for parents is obvious. I mean, it’s happened for millennia.

it’s only recently the model has been broken by gross entitlement and lack of self (inc. family unit) dependence

Cousin works for Amazon at their head office, married an american wife, has american kids. He and his wife would have to leave their jobs to move here and they'd not get jobs here, we don't have that kind of tech employer. She'd have to get a Tier Four visa (unlikely, we don't need many tech workers) or a Spousal visa, which assumes that he can earn enough over here to satisfy the Spousal visa reqs (unlikely, we don't need many tech workers) Them moving back isn't just an inconvenience, it's impossible.

There's no way that the US govt are going to allow his mum to move over there.

His mum has worked and paid her taxes all her life. She is no freeloader. Having paid in, why shouldn't she get State-funded elder care if she needs it? She has paid in to others needing it all her life.

It's called "the social contract". You pay in what you can when you can and you get back what you need when you need it.

I wasn't trying to shame anyone. I was making a point about the reality of getting to the till and not having money,

I hope you didn't get whiplash from that backtracking.

One of us has actually lived in poverty, the other tried to get one up and derail the conversation using a woman being paid to act poor on TV...

I suppose people who have children use maternity resources plus GP and education etc so are a bigger 'drain' from the state. The upside is they way not require as much care in their old age.

People without kids will probably have used less resources (education etc) and will have worked with no maternity pay or breaks. I suppose it evens out.

Obviously everyone should be trying to prepare for their own old age especially with the way the UK is going.

The model has been broken every time someone didn't marry. It has been broken every time someone's children died before they did. It has been broken every time a couple have been infertile. It has been broken whenever the children left the village to work in the newly-forming mill towns.

Before the welfare state, the parish cared for these elderly people under the Poor Laws. The safety net has been there for a long time.

I have also lived in poverty.

Living in a bedsit on benefits isn't fun, neither is fleeing domestic abuse, and neither is living with parents on benefits.

I will consider any further lies you tell about me to be personal attacks in violation of Site Rules.

Its a good suggestion but we need earlier intervention. They need to see and experience what is possible from a really young age. There is much research to support the decades long effect of the right early intervention.

Or if you are already caring for someone. I have a disabled child, I couldn't physically care for an elderly parent at the same time.

Or if your only child is disabled.

Nail on head. There should be a safety net. Not a general entitlement just because people cant be arsed trying to provision for themselves.

You got there. Finally.

You don’t have to. There’s always the option of paying for the care for one of them (or your parent could pay themselves).

the point it the default shouldn’t be expecting other tax payers to pay to fulfil your basic responsibilities.

You need brain development to be at an optimum stage, for them to be recognising they have opinions and possibilities away from those of their parents. And the ability for them to say they WANT to attend said classes, rather than just be withdrawn by parents. Too young and all that is missing.

No woman should every face domestic violence, I wish that had not happened to you.

That aside. You are sadly predictable.

The option is only there if you have the money.

Care for the elderly is the collective responsibility of everyone in society. Old people are not the property of their children to be maintained by them.

I'm not the one whose only response to someone's arguments is ad hominems.

For example, you still haven't explained how a corner shop or other small local retailer (my green grocer, for example) is supposed to afford and implement fancy hand-held scanners to automate the goods categorisations for the half-baked benefits voucher idea.

Cuts are of course an option for the government (and they could come from any part of the budget, not necessarily welfare) but they have various other options too. None of them easy and many would be unpopular.

I can see why you’ve convinced yourself that’s the case as frankly, you’re hoping it’s the case: it’s your lifeline as you refuse to provision for yourself.

I do however have a different opinion. I believe in being self reliant and not expecting others to pay my way for me.

At this moment in time, elderly people are expected to use their own savings over a certain level to pay towards carers.

What we aren't doing, because there's no way to legally enforce it, is demanding that family members house elderly people and fund their care. There is no way to enforce that.

• It's hard enough getting absent fathers to pay child support. You are not going to get adult children paying elder support.
• We cannot even force absentee fathers to take custody of their children. You won't be able to force adult children to take custody of their elderly parents.

You talk as though the State can enforce kinship care of elders. It cannot.

Parental consent is an issue, but tying it benefits might help. There are a couple of interesting trials with early intervention. The first one I read about was referenced in something I was reading at the time - the Abecedarian Project, and more recently Head Start Redi RCT. There are others but those are the two whose names I remember. The first because its reminds me of saying A-B-C-D and the second because it reminded me of Sure Start!

The first trial was small and very intensive from virtually new born and the second followed the children from 4 years old. Both saw improvement in outcomes which lasted decades.