Proposed march through Wooton Bassett

[FrozenNorth]

Here

Initially saw this on the BBC but this link gives a bit more detail. I support everyone's right to free speech but ... dear goodness, this seems to be exceptionally bad taste. My DH is an army doctor and, during his time in a free Afgan clinic for civilians run by the army, saved many Afgan lives. He's going out there again in January. I can imagine I'd be incredibly distressed if he'd lost his life in the conflict and somebody wrote to me explaining what he'd 'really' died for. Ugh. Maybe it's just my personal bias, but I can't help feel that the proposed march is sited to cause maximum potential for violent conflict and to cause maximum hurt to those who are bereaved.

"I mean come on Nick did the Nazi's kill 6 million Jews or do you believe that they've been playing the world's longest running game of Sardines?"

You've raised an interesting point there, because by the definition of a lot of the holocaust denial laws a few historian friends of mine would be defined as holocaust deniers as they don't believe 6 milion people jews were executed. They believe to be the total number of the holocaust to be around that mark but this figure also included dissidents,objectors,homosexuals,disabled, opposition and intellectuals who the regime felt threatened by. But becuase the 6 million jews figure has been repeated so often that it has become an accepted truth and a lot simpler to say than "about 4.5 - 5 million jews and around a million others", that to even raise any questioning of the figures even from an academic angle rather than political one it immediately carries a negative connotation.
Now I'm not saying for a minute that NG is trying to clear up any sort of academic questions or point out the suffering of others rather than just being anti-semetic, but it does raise questions about countries which have holocaust denial laws.

BP;

I said I'm for anonymity on both sides...I'm agreeing with you..

My understanding is that between 5 and 6 millions jews were killed. I believe that the 6 million figure actually came from Adolph Eichman.

The total of Soviet POWs and Polish nationals comes out to about the same again.

The Romany, disabled, homosexual and other targets fall somewhere between 1 and 3 million.

Either way a lot more than a million non-jews were killed.

So in total it's plausible that up to 12 million people died. Well unless you're Nick Griffin, in which case they're all hiding somewhere.

As far as I'm aware the French and German holocaust denial laws basically say that it's illegal to deny the crimes against humanity committed by the German's during WW2.

So it's legal to discuss the numbers but not to deny that systematic mass murder, extermination and genocide occurred.

"I said I'm for anonymity on both sides...I'm agreeing with you.."

Which would make for a sensible and unbiased law.

However sensible and unbiased are not what the BNP are about.

Which is why I'd like to get involved with them....

They could be brilliant...

Do you agree..?

cheers badger paws, that clears it up a bit for me.

Sure, some 'educated' people vote BNP. Ignorant doesn't mean 'educated.'

But this thread is shocking. Really one of the worst I've read on Mumsnet. Feel sick to to stomach ill about the denial of Holocaust.

Should it be debated? No, absolutely not. What the Nazis did was evil evil evil and the whole birth of the EU is to ensure that this never ever happens again.

Shame on the poster(s) who are debating the numbers of Jews being killed as inaccurate as if to bring legitimacy to the BNP.

with a degree like that daftpunk you, of all people, should know better; you have no excuse for your opinions. Shame on you, especially, for brushing the BNP's attitude towards women under the carpet

'Should it be debated? No, absolutely not'

"and the whole birth of the EU is to ensure that this never ever happens again."

Well there's a new one. The EU is one europe under one leadership without a shot being fired, it's an extension of the Nazi party without the uniforms and salutes.

Wake up.

So, Moondog, you think the holocaust should be debated?

Oh, and I can do: too.

"with a degree like that daftpunk you, of all people, should know better; you have no excuse for your opinions. Shame on you"

She does not need an excuse for her opinions, they may not be palatable to you, but the BNP are an elected party in this country and therefore have an elected mandate, just because we don't agree with them doesn't make them any less worthy of consideration.

The Labour party are a bunch of lying, self serving, middle class bashing, trollski's who have destroyed this country, bankrupted our finances, sold off our gold reserves at ther lowest, corrupted our children, sold us out to the EU and created a bigger divide than existed before they took power but there are still some idiots who vote for them.

We have a right to choose in this country which bunch of idiots we are going to vote for, under Islam4uk we would not have that choice.

If Dpreally does have that degree she'sben a liar as he'ssaid she is degreeless before.... however I don'tthink she meant it like that did she?

BP your posts on here have been amazing

DP

I haven't posted for ages as I have been off working on my essay but have been reading.

Apart from a desire to yell 'lookup the Indus Valley Civilisation 'very loudly at you, I have a few questions.

1. Do you think that I am trying to be cool? I'm a particularly lib person and the least cool person I know

1. Your views on single mums....

Noting that there has to be a one ruleforall system, so exceptions cannot be legislated for.

I have a good friend who has been apart (and in another country) from her H for five years, but not divorced (can't post why not, abuse reasons but rest of post will indicate why cannot say). Her H is currently languishing on remand charged with threatening behaviour,fraud,a few other bits and delightfully, sex trafficking.

She and her DD's are on HB, she has health issues on top of the depression resulting from the last decade. They can't rent a place anywhere or buy because of debts H built up in her name.

The kids will never see H again: SSD have decreed it. She is a wonderful person and a great mother. Should she then have to stay married to that creature and never get another chance because of fear of losing her HB?

Hopefully she will get work one day but rightly ATM her priority is her health ( a life threatening disorder but not one she has claimed for or declared) and the children.

As for holocaust denial- of course it should be debated if it has to be, the holocaust must never become a taboo subject because then it willslowly lose its horror and become fodder for conspiracy theorists,but the evicence is there and people who cannot see that make me sick. Really, they do. On behalf of every experimented upon baby and disabled child, murdered adlt and broken survivor.

I don't think anyone on this thread has supported his right to march mrsruffallo, quite the contrary. It's just that the thread talked about him playing into the hands of the BNP and somehow went off on a tangent all about them and beyond.

Thanks MissM, I must rememebr to read threads all the way through
And not to actually participate on these threads on MN, as they drive me bonkers
I off to have a little lie down

Peachy;

I have said many times on MN that I am degreeless, that was correct, but that doesn't mean I'm degreeless now. I don't have to let millions of anonymous stangers know what I'm studying and when I pass...none of their business wouldn't you agree..?

However, it's been an interesting study in human nature...the more I posted how uneducated I was the more agressive some posters became.. I think they felt my uneducated status gave them more right to attack me, slightly out of order, especially from liberals who go out of their way to help the uneducated of the world... but I wont dwell on it....I like and understand the power of irony.

I can't possibly comment on your friend peachy, but will refer you back to an earlier post where I said no party can be all things to all people. Politicians are mortals and only so much they can do, I think people need to remember that. Barack Obama will have failed if he doesn't cure cancer, bring peace to the Middle East and make all Americans millionairs, such is the expectation.

Do I think some Liberals are trying to be "cool"..

Yes, most definitely. I am not worthy because I haven't got any homosexual friends and think it's not right for gay men to adopt children. You have to laugh, and I'm afraid I do.

The Labour party have completely ruined this country, they lied over immigration and god knows what else, anyone who still supports them must be mad.

I am not ashamed to support the BNP, they are a legal party and I have every right to vote for them.....thankfully there are posters like atlantis and moondog on MN who understand the true meaning of the word democracy.

I know I will carry on being attacked, I accept that, but what I wont accept is my country being taken over by immigrants....we might as well have let the Germans take us.

Plenty of educated people don't have degrees Its not about qualifications although considering DP was 'degreeless' a few months ago if you have completed a degree that quick let me know where as ds thinks 3 yrs at uni is too long and you might just have is sussed!

"I know I will carry on being attacked, I accept that, but what I wont accept is my country being taken over by immigrants....we might as well have let the Germans take us."

OK just to be very clear on this....

So you believe that our country is under threat from immigrants and that something needs to be done.

And the price you're willing to pay for that includes:

• The removal of housing related benefit from every woman in the country other than those that are widowed.

• Women's work opportunities being rolled back at least 50 years or so.

• Rape victims loosing their anonymity.

• That you yourself might be classified as an immigrant if you don't fit the BNPs notion of Britishness, which right now seems to involve having been here for 17,000 years and having not one drop of other blood in you.

And the people you hope are competent and intelligent enough to run the country while resolving the problems you see believe that:

• It's actually possible for someone to have pure ancestry going back 17,000 years.

• That gender equality is "feminist poison."

• The Nazi's didn't murder some 12 million people in the holocaust, it was all a fabrication.

I'm of half a mind that DP isn't quite genuine and is playing the devil's advocate.

However on the chance that they're not and in the hope that people reading this will see what the BNP will do and discover the sort of people they are and spread the word if they come up in conversation I'll bite.

I've also met people along the way who were involved or caught up in the war and had some personal experiences of the camps.

They're few and far between now, but maybe you know or knew some of them.

The BNP would have you believe that they're liars.

And they want you to trust them to run the country.

[shrug]

No, Dp, I asked do you think I am trying to be cool.I know already that you think some are.

And youa r right that a party can't be all things to allpeople- but in society most can take careof themselves, I choose toalign myselfwith the party that IMO best protects the vulnerable- amongst whom I include some single parents,and asylum seekers.

If I cam e acrossas aggressive it wasnt becuase of yourdegree,lack of or work in progress: it was becuase I went away and came back to a thread that contains opinions I really detest and after pussy footing about for years (first MN post 25th May 2001) Idecided tos top bothering. He who can dish it can take it after all.

Peachy;

I never said it was you who was agressive, I have never thought that about you, and no, I don't think you're trying to be anything...you come across as extremely genuine.

NH; Where did I say I got a degree in 3 months..? you never fucking give up do you...

I kmnow you didn't, I was asking if you did mean me.

I know you were planning (you were talking to me, not a stalker!) about starting a degree- if you have one got one planned or underway, goodluck with it. I think it will do you wonders.

"Should it be debated? No, absolutely not. What the Nazis did was evil evil evil and the whole birth of the EU is to ensure that this never ever happens again"

And do you think this came about in the absence of debate?
surely in a free and open soceity everything should be open for debate,how else can you highlight the ignorance of those who deny or oppose blatant truths?
Otherwise what kind of soceity do you have when someone elses moral stance decides what can and can't be discussed?
While I am not a holocaust denier in any way shape or form, the idea that holocaust denial laws exist in supposedly evolved countries is appalling in my mind.

I was interested to read this as the head of ACPO and in the context of his experience in Northern Ireland

BP;

It's a shame you have decided I'm a troll, I thought you could handle talking to someone with different opinions to yours...I'm slightly disappointed, not least because I've spent alot of time talking to you..

Oh well.....