Is there anything sensible to read about Diane Abbott?

[Sparetoes]

I quite like her.

She's a black woman who's achieved great things from a very working class background, including going to Cambridge. She's clearly not stupid, although there's been huge industry around making her appear so.

It seems to me an awful lot of "peoples' perception of her is bourne out of racisim and misogyny, though she's clearly made mistakes too.

Is there anything balanced to read?

Is this on MN?

Just seen you answered it in the next post @Zonder - that’s terrible because it’s not anti-Semitic to be pro-Palestine in itself, but a few instances month ago isn’t a constant attack. I think that people also stray into antisemitism after declaring their pro-Palestinian views without realising they’re doing it, and it should be called out

Nice try but those two things are not comparable. @YaMuvva said she hadn't seen my reply before it was deleted and then - Quoted from it - now, how does that work? Either they saw it OR they didn't.

I'll clarify - they did see it, reported it and then lied and said they hadn't seen it.

The funny thing is, I haven't defended anything that Diane Abbot has said or done.

Yes, denying Jews their right to self-determination is anti-Semitic as per the IHRA definition. But maybe let's not have this conversation on this thread about where a poster can find more information about Diane Abbott.

Oh ok, so you agree that she's made anti-Semitic comments in the past? Great! Glad this conversation has come to its natural conclusion now that everyone is in agreement.

Diane Abbott doesn't stand a chance.

No I don't.

Because ... I'm not an expert on Diane Abbot. I don't read or watch 'the news',

@Sparetoes asked if theres anything positive to share about DA and so I posted the link - as I do when anyone is slashing her of and or being racist and or mysonagnistic.

I don't agree or disagree on things until I've read & researched and discussed, better informed and feel it appropriate to form judgment or opinion.

I know that's going to be difficult for you to understand.

It's especially egregious that Diane Abbott made those remarks about Jews and Irish people when she is the MP of a constiuancy with a very large, very visible Jewish population. (as in, these are Jews who look Jewish, and they would mostly sooner eat pork on Yom Kipput than hide their Jewishness)

Many of these Jews are Holocaust survivors, its shocking that she has never come across Holocaust survivors in her work as an MP. Or if she has, she has not bothered listening to their stories.

This is a truly remarkable response. You don't know anything about it, you just know we're wrong to call out her antisemitism and possibly think we're being racist for doing so? 😩

And then when someone is trying to enlighten you on a topic you yourself say you don't know anything about, you decide "no thanks!" and then just keep supporting a possible anti-Semite.

Truly remarkable.

Anyway, I'm out.

I didn't say it was wrong to call her out.

Bye.

In my view, yes.
I say that because the concept of Zionism is a simple one. Take out the geography, Zionism is the right for a Jewish people to have their own state. That’s all. Like Muslims, Christians and Hindu’s do the world over.

Now I am a Zionist and I support a two state solution because Jewish people still get one of the states. My Zionism beliefs are completely independent of the current conflict. Zionism is not ethnic cleansing it’s simply wanting a place we can call home after being exiled from EVERYWHERE we have called home for thousands of years.

Being against Zionism is saying Jewish people are the only religion on the planet who are not entitled to their own state and in the context of the current conflict, it’s saying that Jewish people should have the ONE state that is theirs taken off them.

So yes I do believe anti-Zionism is antisemitism. Trying to exile a whole race/religion of people based on the fact they’re Jewish, is antisemitism

A friend told me they reported you for telling me to fuck off. By the time I went to look it had already been deleted. Happy now? Like I say it’s s shame you said that in the post and o couldn’t read the rest of it.

Are you under the impression that it’s only me reporting your posts on here?

You have defended what Diane Abbott said, you agreed with her on the racial viability point. To which I responded attack-free and concisely and you shanked your feet, said you weren’t reading my post and flounced.

I agree, @Zonder asked we’ve both answered now and it would be a shame to derail the thread and make it about something else entirely!

Agreed. I felt sad seeing her go down this route - long before that remark she made. She was such an incredible trailblazer. But there's no 2 ways about it she has an absolutely massive blind spot (at fucking best) with antisemitism.

Why do you think that?

FWIW I do think (know) she’s been subject to horrific racist attacks and I can’t imagine how hard it must have been to be a black woman in politics in the 80’s/90’s.

But she still said what she said. Her whip was removed and she apologised and hopefully learnt from her words so there isn’t, IMO, a great deal more to say. She still does deserve to be remembered for her achievements but we also can’t completely forget the impact of her words. Especially in the context of the biggest left wing party’s history of antisemitism, it makes it even harder to comprehend how she could have got it so wrong

Do you DON’T think she was racist??

Who has been racist of or misogynistic on this thread about Diane Abbott?

Are you ever going to tell us what you are saying? Or must we continue to play guessing games?

I don't really follow politics and probably she's not the smartest or most able politician but not the worst, is a bit foot-in-mouth and the anti semitic remarks were awful.
I did sort of notice that she has always been a whipping boy and the Daily Mailesque tendency of "let's all laugh at what stupid thing the somewhat overweight black woman Diane Abbott has said now," has been a thing since ever. If you'd asked me at any stage over the past 30 years "which politician after (incumbent PM) or maybe Jeremy Corbyn gets slagged off the most?" I probably would gave guessed Diane Abbott...but I didn't realise till this article how bad it was:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/05/diane-abbott-more-abused-than-any-other-mps-during-election
That's mind boggling. Not just the most abused female MP but ten times more than the next most abused female MP. Nearly as much shit thrown at her as all the others put together. There were nearly 200 of them at that point. Like...getting as much shit as 200 of your peers put together, and probably consistently, relentlessly so through your career, and so much of it viciously misogynistic and racist in nature...it's just mind boggling. Most politicians probably deserve the occasional bit of scathing critcism but this volume of sewage for decades is unreal. If I managed to become an MP there is no way I could deal with that for more than a handful of years, if that.

People like you, who twist anything and everything someone says is the reason more people don't bother trying to discuss Israel & Jews because I absolutely didn't say anyone was wrong to call out Diane Abbot for antisemitism and nor did I say anyone here was being racist for doing so?

If you think I was talking about you or YaMuvva when I said I share the link to people being racist and mysonagnistic on SM about DA then that's on YOU because I didn't post it in RESPONSE to either of you did I? No. I didn't.

I don't know what you think you've proved or achieved in this thread but it's nothing good.

All you/they have done is be aggressive, lecturing and patronising and the vast majority of people reading quietly won't dare comment for getting the same treatment I have.

Most people are so scared of being called antisemitic that they will just not say or do.anything even in the face of Palestinian genocide. You think that's a win?

@YaMuvva seeing as you 'didn't see' my post before it was deleted - here you

YaMuvva Today 12:56

I mean these posters that just teeter on the edge of but never quite cross it aren't as clever as they think.

They aren't saying they despise Jewish people but the nuance of downplaying Jewish hate, stating Jewish people don't have the rights as every other religion has ("because Palestine!") turning the conversation round about Palestine every time and trying to excuse racist comments has plenty that one can read between the lines of what they are really getting at.

My reply -
Oh do flutter off into the sunset.

If you want to call me antisemitic then put your big girl pants on and do it proudly.

Then I'll laugh at you. Big wheezy belly laughs...

Because I'm not an antisemite.

I don't hate Jews. I don't hate Israel.
I don't wish harm upon them one bit. I do not wish for Jews living in the UK (where I live) or anywhere to experience hate crime or abuse or harassment or even unkindness of any sort.

But the problem for people like you who have your own VERY evident agenda is that I don't hate ANYONE.

I do not wish hate or poverty or war or discrimination on ANYONE. Jews, Travellers, Palestinians, Muslims, Arabs, South Asians, East Asians, Inuits, Africans, Australians, immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, lesbians, gay people, trans people, non binary people etc etc etc etc etc etc til the cows come home!
Look, I don't even hate wasps and I'm highly allergic to them and while we're here I don't believe in any God either so I manage to not hate anyone without the threat of hell or promise of heaven too and I know it'll rain on what you're trying to make me out to be even more but, my atheism doesn't mean that I won't stand up the rights of others to believe in any God they choose to with one caveat - someones religious beliefs do not entitle them to inflict harm on anyone who doesn't share those beliefs.

and I don't need to be 'spoonfed' - you wanted me so badly to comment on the article Diane wrote (which wasn't an article just a comment on someone else's) - I'm 'aware of it' but I haven't read it so IMO it's not appropriate for me to comment on it.

You want me to answer your question and read the article and comment but you also want me to do the work of finding it! No.

It's patently clear that some posters here 'hate' Diane Abbot. That's your perogative but, it says something that the people shouting the loudest about hate for other human beings are also the ones who are the most hateful.

I’ve been aggressive and yet had no posts deleted for breaking guidelines or hinted that you are being spied on and told me to ‘flutter off into the sunset’?

Sure. If you have to delude yourself that way then crack on.

It appears I missed nothing with your deleted post except the modern day equivalent of “I don’t hate black people! My neighbours are black, skin colour doesn’t matter to me!” after spending a good part of 2 days refusing to call someone racist who made a racist comment about black people.

Most people are so scared of being called antisemitic that they will just not say or do.anything even in the face of Palestinian genocide. You think that's a win?

Well here’s my advice to them…wait for it… don’t be antisemitic then. You’re welcome everyone <takes bow>.

The fact you spent dozens of posts skirting around the Diane Abbott being racist issue, never once giving a proper answer, just a cryptic “Starmer removing her whip means nothing” (assuming you mean her sacking was for show?) leads me to draw the conclusion that you have an unsavoury opinion you don’t wish to share. So either out your big girl pants on and share it and own your opinion or spend your time more wisely on another thread.

PS interesting how you managed to recall your whole thread plus the time - whatever murky corner of the internet you play on outside of MN just exposes you as a the person you display so clearly

Yes, @Elfblossom , I do consider it a win if people think twice before making anti-Semitic comments.

Anyway, hopefully you'll one day realise how utterly ridiculous it is to completely ignore the fact that Diane Abbott has made anti-Semitic comments and just go on praising her, and getting annoyed when others refuse to see past her antisemitism or try to make you understand why they don't support her.

I mean if you’re gonna be a spy at least don’t be a shit spy who gives things away 🤣

People are SO incensed they can’t be freely antisemitic without us pesky Jews coming on to ask them to stop.

“ fuck off”
”Idiot”
”Flutter away”
“You’re a liar with a fake life”
= perfectly acceptable

”I don’t like antisemites”
OMG YOURE SO AGGRESSIVE

🤣🤣🤣

I've already defended Diane Abbot on this thread so I don't hate her. I would say though that this:

All you/they have done is be aggressive, lecturing and patronising and the vast majority of people reading quietly won't dare comment for getting the same treatment I have.

Is actually how you have been acting on this thread. And I am one of the people who has reported some, not all, but some of your deleted posts because they were personal attacks.