Is there anything sensible to read about Diane Abbott?

[Sparetoes]

I quite like her.

She's a black woman who's achieved great things from a very working class background, including going to Cambridge. She's clearly not stupid, although there's been huge industry around making her appear so.

It seems to me an awful lot of "peoples' perception of her is bourne out of racisim and misogyny, though she's clearly made mistakes too.

Is there anything balanced to read?

But, are you talking about one of the reasons she was suspended?

The Jewish/traveller/gypsy comment?

So how am I to show you her comments?

Well it wasn’t “one of the reasons” it was the reason.
And yes, that article.

Well indeed

I don't read 'Glamour magazine' either but nice bitchy comment... I see mumsnet isn't the place for reason debate.

You linked us to it!!

You said whenever you hear something bad about Diane Abbott you think of that article.

So clearly you have read it.

Now stop being so obtuse and apply some critical thinking skills.

Im sure you think the “neuro difficult” is hilarious but it was tedious enough the first time, pack it in with the personal attacks.

Do you mean to antisemitism 'isn't' a thing? Can you proof read your own post before you send, this is tedious having to clarify repeatedly.

No I said it properly. Here is it again:

it’s particularly anti-Semitic to deny, even in the smallest form, that anti-semitism is a thing.

Note the use of my word ‘deny’

Saying “it’s anti-Semitic to deny anti-semitism isn’t a thing” would not make sense. It would be a double negative.

Are you Jewish?

Whats the relevancy?

I take the offence of a Jewish person seriously.

The faux offence of someone not Jewish but who is virtue signalling so they can get a gold star for being the most not antisemitic ... not so much.

Bit like I wouldn't want cancer treatment from a rheumatologist...

Are race and ethnicity interchangeable?

So you will only answer my question on “Why does Starmer sacking her mean nothing?” If I’m Jewish? What about if I’m Irish or Gyspy Traveller?

It’s a weird line to take. Why can only Jewish people be offended by anti-semitism? What about black people, can only they be offended by racism?

Are race and ethnicity interchangeable?

Im trying to figure out what you mean in the context of Diane Abbot?

So you will only answer my question on “Why does Starmer sacking her mean nothing?” If I’m Jewish?

That's not what I said now is it?

What about if I’m Irish or Gyspy Traveller?

Are you?

It’s a weird line to take. Why can only Jewish people be offended by anti-semitism? What about black people, can only they be offended by racism?

Honestly? Yes.
At the most basic level, yes.
If you are not part of a marginalised group, you can be an ally at best but, you do not have the right to wave the biggest flag, shout the loudest without lived experience. Unless you ARE black, you can't possibly truly understand what it's like to BE black.

I'm not black. I can stand up for & alongside black people but, I don't get to decide what's racism or race based inequality - black people do.
I'm not Jewish. I will defend a Jewish person's right to live in a world where they do not experience hate from others.

I will also not accept Palestinians being slaughtered for any reason. That doesn't make me antisemitic - it makes me a person who believes that no person, no child especially should have their skulls split open & their limbs ripped from their bodies because the grown ups can't sit around a table, talk through their differences and come to an agreement.

Are race and ethnicity interchangeable?

Im trying to figure out what you mean in the context of Diane Abbot?

Answer it without context.

You also don't mention one of, if not the biggest marginalised groups in the world - the disabled. Do you get so defensive of the inequality & abuse that disabled suffer too or is it just Jewish people you jump to defend?

That's not what I said now is it?

TBH @Elfblossom i don’t really know what it is you are saying. Since I brought up the question of Diane Abbott’s racism you have replied no less than NINE times to me and never once gave your opinion on her racism. You’re withholding your answer and I can’t figure out why.

I am not sharing my personal information with you either because it has no relevancy.

I entirely disagree only black people can be offended by racism. Nobody is claiming white people understand what it’s likes to be black but allyship is very important. I just can’t figure out how this relates to your reluctance to share your thoughts on Diane Abbott’s racism or why you’re asking if I’m Jewish.

.I will defend a Jewish person's right to live in a world where they do not experience hate from others.

I didn’t ask that. I asked if you believe Jews have the right to their own state? Do Muslims have the right to their own state?

I will also not accept Palestinians being slaughtered for any reason. That doesn't make me antisemitic - it makes me a person who believes that no person, no child especially should have their skulls split open & their limbs ripped from their bodies because the grown ups can't sit around a table, talk through their differences and come to an agreement.

the gratuitous descriptions are unnecessary. No one has said this is anti-Semitic? I’m trying to figure out how it relates to Diane Abbot though! AFAIK she has never made any references being anti-Palestinian, has she? You can also believe the above AND believe Jewish people have the right to their own state.

Answer it without context.

Yes sir!

Race is something you inherit and ethnicity refers to cultural identification. Inherited race is not always just about characteristics.

What is your point in asking me this question? I think I know, but I want to clarify.

You also don't mention one of, if not the biggest marginalised groups in the world - the disabled. Do you get so defensive of the inequality & abuse that disabled suffer too or is it just Jewish people you jump to defend

Why do I have to defend every single group? Do you? Or is it just Palestinians you jump to defend?

Id also like to know your source for this stat.

Because by my calculations, in 2023 1 in 1454 disabled people experienced ableist hate crimes. Whereas 1 in 67 Jewish people experienced a hate crime.
The Jewish population of the U.K. makes up around 0.4% of the population yet nearly 20% of religious hate crimes registered are targetted at Jewish people.

So I’ll ask: Do you have a problem with me defending Jewish people when you look at those numbers?

Now I’ve answered your questions would you like to answer the one I’ve been asking for 10 posts now, in that what do you think of Diane Abbot’s racism?

I told you - send the link and I'll read it.

Did you miss that part?

You also haven't asked me if I 'believe Jews have the right to their own state?'

The answer to that is yes and no. Do Jewish people have a right to live without hate and harassment? Yes. Do they have a right to inflict an apartheid prison on the people of Palestine? No.

The problem isn't regular, average people though is it - it's power hungry greedy (more often than not) men.

You think that description was gratuitous? 😆 oh my, clutch some pearls & look away why don't you. Children dying like that IS ugly and gratuitous and repulsive isn't it? The images in the media that you claim to be a part of are horrific... don't look away. Look AT it and let it fuel you to fight for it to stop.

Experiencing hate and inequality is far more than figures on reported crime. Now you're just being silly or pedantic.
You think anyone disabled is filing a crime each time? 😆

Do Muslims have a right to their own state? It is Israeli’s not Jewish people inflicting conflict on Palestinians (I wonder if you’d say “The Muslims don’t have a right to inflict the atrocities they do in Saudi Arabia”?). Take Israel and Palestine as geographical places aside - do Jewish people have the right to their own state?

Yes it was gratuitous (I have a feeling you don’t know what the word means?). I don’t understand what the point of being gratuitous was. Actually I do, I know exactly but you’d never admit it. How about you watch the video of raped Israelis being dragged through the street. Look AT it and let it fuel your anger about terrorism. See how silly and provocative it sounds?

Why do you need the article when you already know of it? Anyone seeing as you clearly need spoon fed here you go

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2023/apr/23/success-for-women-not-same-as-for-men-letters

Experiencing hate and inequality is far more than figures on reported crime. Now you're just being silly or pedantic.

It’s silly to point out the disproportionate number of hate crimes again Jewish people?! Do statistics only matter when it comes to non-Jews?? As you were the one (wrongly) claiming the disabled are the ‘most’ discriminated against and even that faux statistics to bait me with. But when I mention anti-Jewish hate, all of a sudden “it’s far more than figures on a report”. Actually, it’s not- those figures matter deeply.

Would you downplay this to someone talking about Islamophobia?? Or ableism?

You think anyone disabled is filing a crime each time?

You think everyone Jewish does? 😆or any group for that matter?

I mean these posters that just teeter on the edge of but never quite cross it aren’t as clever as they think.

They aren’t saying they despise Jewish people but the nuance of downplaying Jewish hate, stating Jewish people don’t have the rights as every other religion has (“because Palestine!”) turning the conversation round about Palestine every time and trying to excuse racist comments has plenty that one can read between the lines of what they are really getting at.

It's a comment from Diane then, in response to an article written by someone else.

Ordinarily, I'd read and then process and mull it over and seek further reading to help me draw an opinion but as you're seemingly in a hurry to get to say 'see see! I told you ElfBlossom hates Jews' ... here's my instant thought.

I understand what she's saying. A person will brown or black skin is never not open to hate or discrimination.

Do I agree with what she said? Not 100% but you won't care about that. You're not here for a sharing of opinions, to learn or be curious. You just want to be right.

And I can't help with that.

@Elfblossom its a shame your earlier post was deleted as I feel like I’ve missed a big part of what you said? Oh well.

I understand what she's saying. A person will brown or black skin is never not open to hate or discrimination

So, you’re talking about immediate visibility, which is a very important topic, and I’ll tell you why it doesn’t make something not racist, and doesn’t mean people aren’t at risk.

Firstly I can’t speak for Irish people or Gypsy Travellers - it’s not my lane - but many Jewish people actually are visibly Jewish. Technically they could wear different clothing but to put it simply - why should they? Orthodox Jews live their lives by their faith and hiding their faith would be pandering to the hateful people (aka the racists/anti-semites). Also, the last time Jewish people were ALL ‘visibly Jewish’ they wore yellow stars. Let’s not go back to that is we can avoid it please.

Secondly - it wouldn’t make a jot of difference if Jewish people don’t “look Jewish”, or even if they’re a practising Jew - if Holocaust 2.0 happens (and it could happen) the anti-semites would be after Jewish people due to their bloodline not just their faith.

Thirdly, many Jewish people have had to change their surnames to something less Jewish sounding. Many Jewish actors have been told to do this otherwise they wouldn’t get work. I have read that Irish people in the 90’s changed their accent to avoid discrimination. This would not happen if racism against those groups wasn’t so prevalent.

Finally, it implies that to escape racism, Jewish people, Irish people and Gypsy travellers can or should hide their “true” self to avoid racism. But that would apply to no other minority group - you wouldn’t tell gay people to hide their gayness to avoid homophobia.

What Abbot has done in comparing these groups to redheads, and claim they don’t experience racism but discrimination is DEEPLY damaging in a world where anti-semitism at least is on the rise at alarming rates. She completely downplayed the racism Jewish people experience through the medium of “Racism top trumps”. Minimising racism is racist and she absolutely was right to lose her whip because we cannot have people in power who minimise racism even if they think it’s ‘other racism’.

David Baddiel, a Jewish atheist, explains it far better than I can if you wanted to read his column it’s very worthwhile https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/david-baddiel-whoopi-goldberg-antisemitism-holocaust-the-view-b980696.html

Do I agree with what she said? Not 100% but you won't care about that. You're not here for a sharing of opinions, to learn or be curious. You just want to be right.

Im really not out to get you. And I’m not outraged by your viewpoint, I just hope I can give insight into why it was wrong of her to say. I think on the surface it’s obvious the POC can’t hide their race/ethnicity and they experience direct discrimination as a result. But that does not mean others groups don’t experience abject racism, nor does it mean the racism they experience is less frequent or easier to handle.

BTW baddiel’s column pre-dated Abbot’s remarks but we’re in response to Whoopi Goldberg saying the Holocaust wasn’t about race but, IIRC, ‘man’s hate towards man’.

Another point - you maybe not be aware but the Jewish schools in this country have to have a huge amount of security and pupils to safety drills every week like they do in the States to prepare for gun crime. I’m not aware that this happens in any other type of school. This is what Jewish children experience, in the UK. Their skin colour doesn’t matter one bit, the anti-semite extremists know where they are and this week alone 3 anti-Jew terrorists plotting the murder of Jewish people in the North have been in court. That is terrifying.

ALSO - probably the most important point is Abbot is assuming those 3 groups are white. They absolutely are not and don’t wholly benefit from white privilege.

You're really not 'out to get me' lolololol hilarious ... genuinely! When you've spent this whole thread calling me antisemitic!

I've not bothered to more than skim read this post And I'm not reading the next.

And let me give you some advice for free.

If you truly (which I doubt) seek to educate then remember that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar

I see you.

And I'm not playing any more.