Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

And the other part of all this is that there was no reason at all to even bring Hitler into the discussion with Vanessa Feltz and then keep on and on! Someone described him yesterday as a 'political arsonist.' Again, it's ridiculous that this is even being discussed. It was totally unnecessary.

The worst I've heard was in a coffee shop. Was just walking by and heard this:

"What's the difference between a pizza and a Jew? A pizza doesn't scream in the oven".

The fact that most of these kids were black and clearly college educated and therefore should have known better upset me even more.

forkhandles - "I am upset to see this stupid collapse of criticism of Israel into jeers of anti-semite, by the same people who care little for contemporary child refugees. As a historian, i am sick at seeing the facile manipulations of the historical record in the name of point scoring. "

Who here has conflated criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism? Lists of specifically anti-Semitic comments have been given repeatedly on this thread and you persist with the lie that this s about legitimate critiques of Israel. It is nothing of the sort. You then follow this with a low and entirely unfounded accusation that those of us who object to this anti-Semitism 'care little for contemporary child refugees' - despite the fact that it is a Jewish refugee, Lord Dubs, who is himself behind the amendment and it has been widely supported across the Jewish community.

You object to 'facile manipulations of the historical record' and then post posts containing exactly that!

You couldn't make it up.

Marmite - that's shocking.

And to those whose dcs have been subject to the anti-Semitic abuse described in this thread, I wish them strength to overcome this.

They won't be the first to have suffered this, and won't be the last.

Truly shocking in this day and age. And shocking that the schools aren't dealing with it.

grinkle I hear you - there are so many things wrong with that statement it's hard to know where to begin. I'd also suggest that Marxism has a fine history for setting people against each other...

To be fair, DS's first school wanted to deal with it, but was not especially effective. The second school was better - it might have had something to do with the fact that the head turned out to be Jewish (we didn't have a clue beforehand) and had her own experiences to draw on...

bob - I think one particular aggravating factor with KL that has been entirely overlooked by the mainstream media is the fact that he was talking to Vanessa Feltz, well known to be Jewish. So it wasn't just a random article he wrote or a comment on his radio show - he rubbed it in by making these comments to the face of a well-known Jewish presenter. Who I'm guessing will have been too astonished to have been able to respond meaningfully (I certainly would have been).

Was it an accident this all blew up just before the religious holidays at the end of the long festival of Passover (from sundown last night till sundown on Sat night, all Orthodox Jews will be uncontactable by media and unable to respond in any way, rather handy for Ken and the Labour Party...?)

I don't know grinkle - I'm not sure he'd think about it in in tactical terms like that. In his last mayoral campaign he merrily told a roomful of Jewish people (sympathetic to Labour) that they'd never vote for him anyway because Jews were rich. Cue gasps from all assembled. He just enjoys lobbying grenades and getting lots of attention for it. I find him astonishing.

Maybe true.

Certainly highly convenient for him and the Labour Party, though, as by the time the Board of Deputies and most Jewish commentators are back in circulation, the story will be old news.

grinkle I thought the same thing about Vanessa Feltz being the interviewer. Surely it must be relevant that he was making those Hitler comments to a Jewish woman?

Grinkle, if you believe racist posters wish you dead, then report them and MNHQ will remove their posts and ban them. That's what the Report button is for.

If, however, you merely wish to smear and insult people you disagree with, you should expect to be called on it.

Perhaps the fact that I have personal, first hand experiences of racists who wished me dead enables me to recognise the real thing when I see it.

Perhaps the fact that I have personal, first hand experiences of racists who wished me dead enables me to recognise the real thing when I see it.

How do you know grinkle hasn't?

My family and I have along aswell. We also see every day casual racism. In fact my 5yr old was spat at yesterday.

Fork

"On come on - this is pathetic and divisive and simply not true. (and strange Freudian slip there... death??? is that what you want to do to Blacks and Muslims???"

I have reported your post and won't engage with you any further, you are a provocateur and not a very clever one. Dealt easily autocorrects to death - You must be a very paranoid person if you deduct from my post that I "want to do to Blacks and Muslims???" How do you know that I am neither of these? You sound unhinged.

Tanith - numerous of my relatives were brutally murdered in the Holocaust, thanks. It's not hyperbole to suggest that Jews have (frequently) been murdered by anti-Semites - have you forgotten the murders in the Paris supermarket so soon? Or the Belgian museum? Or the French school? etc etc etc.

How many of your family members have been murdered by racists, Tanith? Both my parents are Holocaust survivors.

So I'll say it again. Racists can fuck off, frankly. No, I'm not going to treat them with kid gloves.

As I said upthread, I will call out and challenge any anti-Semitism when I see it, unvarnished.

And if you don't like that, tough.

Well when Labour does spectacularly badly in the May elections all these leftie apologists will know who to blame. Except they won't. They never pull the wool from their eyes. Some politician said there isn't a Labour party problem which Ken Livingstone doesn't make worse. Honestly, what a bunch of pathetic wimps. Just get rid of those two that caused all this trouble. At least it would be one step in the right direction.

You have yet to identify the racists on this thread who wish you dead and report them, Grinkle.

You have yet to justify insulting and smearing posters who disagree with you.

Coolforkittycats: "How do you know that grinkle hasn't?"

Where did I say that she hadn't?

Isn't it funny how most of the self-declared 'anti-zionists' on this thread (bert being the exception) don't engage with any posts that feature facts and links to informative resources to aid the discussion and don't provide any answers as to what they thinks counts as anti-Semitism? In fact the very notion of anti-Semitism is being ridiculed by these posters ("it's all in your heads"). Also nearly all posts by these 'anti-zionists' (bar Bert) sound incredibly dim and uneducated with little grasp of history. They support KL and the anti-Semitic Labour MPs who have been named in this thread so basically they are neither very smart nor nice. I am always open to letting new facts or new connections change my point of view but no facts or interesting ways of connecting the dots were posted by any of these posters. Not very convincing to say the least.

Don't imagine that this lack of engagement hasn't been noticed, Darling

The ridiculing of anti-semitism - as in "it's all in your heads" - is precisely what I was talking about in an earlier post. In all honesty, what other group would someone say that about and expect to get away with it?

Darling, I'll look up that history book you recommend. It sounds interesting.

For those who are interested, here is a contemporary government definition of antisemitism (which doesn't, of course, mean that everyone's obliged to use the same definition):

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

Apparently, it was a definition which was initially discredited due to perceived conflation of anti-semitism and criticism of Israel. Eric Pickles instated it on the government website last month.

I think it's an interesting read whatever your perspective.

Wow, that definition doesn't half go on. It would seem to rather unnecessarily over-complicate something pretty obvious!

How complicated can it be?

Anti-Semitism = racism against Jews.

Here's a nice dictionary definition:
Anti-Semitism = hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

That's always been the accepted definition as far as I'm aware, though obviously you always get those who appear to be jealous of centuries of persecution of Jews who attempt to claim the term as their own, to cover all Semitic peoples, ie most Middle Eastern people.

Personally, I don't really care what you call it. If someone is being racist against Jews, that's what we're talking about.

Tanith - you can be sure I'm keeping a beady eye out. And will report as necessary. Funnily enough, post-Nazis, most anti-Semites don't tend to shout from the rooftops that they plan to murder Jews (though some do, eg Hamas). Though Hamas' supporters in the UK would like you to forget that bit. As it's a bit uncomfortable to explain away.

Looks like the BBC have attempted some definitions:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36160928