Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

And if you think I have 'insulted or smeared any posters who disagree with me', then feel free to report my posts too. I don't think I have. I have stated that any racists can fuck off. But as there aren't any on this thread :) - then nobody can be offended, can they?

Tanith, that seems a fair summing up by the BBC.

It's a real mystery why the anti- Semites are so coy about it.

I mean if your stance really is - 'I don't believe Jews when they 'cry' anti Semitism'' or 'I believe them but meh I don't actually give a shit about it because I think it's not as bad as islamaphobia or because they deserve it'

Then why not just call yourself a Jew-hater and be done with it?

I am going to comity a MN crime but taking a break from chores I read this comment in the DF, which I thought was spot on.

"Are all these Corbynistas mad? they are flooding the Guardian comments on these articles in support of Livingston and quoting Hitler etc. They are surely mad? You can't quote Hitler or analyse anything he said or did in any other way than accepting that he was a criminal and a liar with one sole goal of destroying the entire Jewish race. To argue the zionist/anti-semetic nonsense is ludicrous, Hitler had one mission in his life and he lied and double-dealed and did everything he possibly could to hoodwink, agitate and incite to get their. John Mann is right, dead right, he could not be more right on it. Livingston, Corbyn and all the others that have fermented this nonsense in the universities and beyond are totally and utterly wrong....dangerously wrong. It's a disgrace."

for quoting from a poster on DM but I thought it was well articulated.

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Thanks Darling.

As I said, thanks to it being a Jewish holiday today, the anti-Semites in the Guardian are getting a very free run today. They may get a bit of a shock if this runs past Sat night!

It's the "terminally stupid" and "sociopathic imbeciles" insults you made that I have a problem with, Grinkle. When I pointed this out, you accused those posters of being racists who wished you dead and added a few extraordinary and aggressive remarks about misogynists and racists directed at me.

As I previously said, I have personal experience: my father was in the British Army. He was also Irish. I have been stoned by youths because I was white. My family and I have been attacked because he was an Irishman in the Army. I have been attacked and beaten up because racists believed that my birth in a Military hospital abroad meant that I was a national of the country where I was born.

Racism has many ugly and ignorant faces and I have never supported any of them.

Yes, I just had to quote Owen Jones to a somewhat dim Corbynista on facebook claiming that Ken had it all right. I thought he might pay more attention to Owen Jones than to me! It felt like bringing in someone's cool big brother to give them a ticking off!

Owen Jones has been very good about it - he summarises the arguments and why Ken needs to go very well, on his facebook page.

grinkle good point. I am not Jewish but the issues are close to my heart for various reasons. I am disgusted at KL, the other labour MPS who express anti-Semitic views casually and callously and I am appalled by JC who is showing his try colours. I wonder if this whole scenario is going to have long-term consequences. At least hypocritical lefty anti-zionists are publicly embarrassing themselves by quoting Hitler to make their points. One really couldn't make this up could one?

If you have never supported racism, then join the club on this thread, tanith, and I'm not sure why you would assume the "terminally stupid" and "sociopathic imbeciles" comments were aimed at you. (They weren't.)

All racism is despicable, whether aimed at the Irish or the Jews. It's not been long now since anti-Irish racism was visible and prevalent in England. I'm sure some still exists, though given the range of alternative targets, the Irish have probably dropped down the list of interesting ones to active racists these days - they are probably too busy attacking Muslims/Jews/etc these days.

We should be on the same side, Tanith, opposing racists - why do you assume I would be prejudiced against you? I'm not.

Owen Jones has been very good about it - he summarises the arguments and why Ken needs to go very well, on his facebook page.

I can't imagine Ken cares overmuch. He has neanderthal views on Jewishness which make him unconcerned about giving a platform, and more, to hideous scum who fantasise about killing Jews, and those people are hardly milk and water liberals when it comes to homosexuality, either. Ken's friends wouldn't like the cut of Owen Jones' job, as out gays are another group they want to kill.

Remember, Corbyn and Livingstone are both happy to take money from violent homophobic and anti-Semitic governments. They variously do paid work for Russia Today, the propaganda arm of Putin, and Press TV, the propaganda arm of Tehran. So their willingness to cosy up to people who hang gays from cranes is matched only by their willingness to cosy up to people who want to kill Jews on an industrial scale.

We hung William Joyce for appearing on radio stations broadcasting propaganda for our enemies. Corbyn and Livingstone get elected, doing the same.

Funny, Ricardian, but I get the impression you don't like Corbyn or Livingstone very much!

Corbyn - I denounce anti-Semitism to anyone who will listen. It will not be tolerated in the Labour party..

Caller -

Corbyn - thank you for your call!

To be fair, this was before he was leader of the LP, caller was presumably not a member of the LP and Corbyn was being paid, so perhaps we can let it go.

That's a bit harsh! That sounds like good manners to a caller - different if he went on and allowed the caller's comments to stand unquestioned! Or worse, agreed!

(You'll have to tell me - couldn't listen to Galloway's voice for more than a few seconds without feeling slightly ill.)

Ok, if you don't want to listen to Gorgeous then skip to about 7 minutes in - the caller gets challenged when he mentions something about America 'solving' problems, but not the 'throw them out' bit. That's fine...

Ive been following this story on bbc/sky and newspaper websites, and wondering if I have slipped into a parallel universe, I just can't my head round it, members of our parliament having anti-Semite views and normalising them. I am shocked and saddened by this- and from reading comments on forums/news sites etc it looks like it's been a hidden problem here - apologies to those that have been victims of racism, I appreciate its not hidden from you, but I mean from the general public , as if it's being swept under the carpet... I find that really frightening normalising racism through the back door. I'm glad that this has unfolded as it gives us opportunity to challenge and hopefully educate. It is absolute proof that we must continue to remember/commemorate the holocaust- Never again.

Well said, Hattie. I think education is key. I think there are a lot of people who have probably not ever met a Jewish person, who really do imagine that all Jews are super-rich and cartoon-evil type characters. Or who've never been to Israel (or anywhere else in the Middle East for that matter) but imagine it is full of people murdering Muslims casually and continuously.

There is a real need for people to meet each other, preferably face-to-face, and discuss these issues openly. So much of it is based on ignorance, plain and simple.

Of course, some of it goes beyond that and these vile attitudes are encouraged by some who stand to benefit from it, personally or politically. Those people are probably beyond the reach of discussion etc. Not worth engaging with.

KL, sadly, falls into the latter category; Naz Shah into the former.

Good post, Hattie.

Most people just want to live in peace - there are too many though on all sides who want it only on their own terms and can't see that without compromise, peace can't happen.

Naz Shah made a great statement - and the Bradford synagogue (that local Muslims helped keep going) was fulsome in their praise for her, saying they couldn't relate the stuff she'd posted with the person they'd met. I wish the first draft of her statement had been published fully. But wheeling Ken Livingstone out (was it a Labour press office decision or his alone?) to discuss her situation was catastrophic. He gleefully poured petrol on the situation and used a metaphorical flame-thrower to set it ablaze.

Grinkle - you have articulated what I was thinking perfectly! I usually lurk around the more lighthearted mumsnet boards but this is so huge, and it feels like it could be used to gain a postive - like you say engaging people. I'm off to do bedtime now but will be watching this story with interest and hope

Bobthe . . Also nodding in agreement with you

Thinking about the whole business, I am reminded of the phrase 'those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first drive mad'.

Ken has utterly lost the plot. Like a classical tragedy, he has been undone by his own hubris.

I am hoping that the whole Labour Party has not been undone by it too. But that said, the divisions between left and right in the current Labour Party were always going to unravel somewhere, somehow. Kind of wish that anti-Semitism wasn't the trigger, as some people will inevitably blame the messenger, but can't be helped.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

This article is a really good rebuttal, that explains very clearly for the ignorant

'why, when Ken Livingstone announces he can’t have offended anyone because he’s told “the truth” about relations between pre-war Zionism and the Nazis, or when his online supporters spam everyone with links to the Wikipedia page on the Haavara Agreement as though it is game, set and match to their hero, they are perverting the truth, even whilst they are offering facts.'

www.labourteachers.org.uk/historical-truth-johndavidblake/