Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

I think the art of debate should be taught more thoroughly.

Insults such as "terminally stupid" and "sociopathic imbeciles" have no place in reasoned and intelligent debate.

i agree very much with your last post but kindness is not enough, education, awareness and rational debate are corner stones of a the civilised world. ignorance is a huge contribution factor to any type of bigotry and hate.

x post - mu post was in response to another

Darling, when I say I'm not an expert on any aspect of history, I don't mean I am particularly ignorant of it or don't educate myself. I mean that it is not my academic specialism.

The way history (and probably most other subjects, to be fair) is taught can often lead to more narrow-minded approaches I think. The risk is in people being over-confident in what they think they know.

I really, really recommend reading In Defense of History, it's a bit dry but has influenced my thinking about history and politics most profoundly.

sorry forkhandles, did you really just say I have "blind ideological hatred" or are you referring to someone else?

If you meant it for me, I'd really appreciate if you either justify that remark or retract it.

Another, Ken Livingstone was not trying to debate historical points though. He was randomly inserting them and obsessing over them to make maximum mischief. It was unhelpful to Shah so why did he do it?

Naz Shah wasnt debating history either but retweeting a juvenile, smart ass meme saying Israel should be relocated . "Problem solved!" she added.

She realises what she said was in the context of history anti Semitic, OK, but does it then make a Kens discussion relevant? To Ken yes..to me it smacks of an hot button issue for Ken and that he chose to indulge himself. As a representative of the Labour Party he was embarrassing.

And here's another analysis of Livingstone's remarks from an historian, though it's just insane that discussion is even being had.

BobTheBuddha: my DS has been through same. Will tell him from now on Jews are not a race, Hitler was a peace envoy, the Jimmy Carter of his time if you will, and to tell all classmates the copy of the Torah he's carrying around is actually Mein Kampf. As Rachel once said in Friends 'that oughta do it'.

Just peachy that there are MNers who think Jews are not really a thing and that Adolf may have had a point. Way to go. Let's replace those converse all stars with a lovely pair of shiny jackboots.

Bobthebuddha - I match your rather second rate Roger Moorhouse with Lennni Brenner - who was the first historian to explore these issues and would have been what KL probably knew back in the 1980s. But the Nicosia book is more liberal and perhaps better researched.

And 'blind ideological hatred', because of your exasperated exclamations and refusal to engage in any serious debate, preferring instead to twist what people say into ludicrous positions.

It's just insane that discussion is even being had.

100 per cent.

Marmite59 I'm so sorry to hear that. It's not as if we even as a family unit practice any kind of Judaism (I'm CofE, DH is an absolute atheist, as is MIL. The annihilation of her little cousins, uncle and aunt in Germany killed her religion after her father literally died of a broken heart once he found out his brother and family were murdered) - DS simply felt quite proud that his Dad was Jewish, mentioned it at school and it was used against him as an insult thereafter. Sickening - this was 8 and 9 year olds in a mainstream primary school.

We were visiting DH's family the other week and one of his (Jewish) cousins came in after watching his kids play a football match (Jewish team). They got "f**ing Jews" chanted at them by the other team all through the match.

I'm apparently the one who's accused of being full of "ideological hatred" though, though to the best of my knowledge, I've directed hate at nobody. It's slightly upsetting.

Tanith - I don't waste my breath debating with people who would happily see me dead, because of my race and/or face. Racism is not 'reasoned or intelligent'. Assuming that you can argue with blind hatred using reasoned or intelligent debate is, sadly, wishful thinking.

I will debate until the cows come home with thoughtful people whose views I disagree with, and as politely as pie.

But racists, no.

I won't give them the time of day, sorry.

"DS simply felt quite proud that his Dad was Jewish, mentioned it at school and it was used against him as an insult thereafter. Sickening - this was 8 and 9 year olds in a mainstream primary school."

Absolutely outrageous and I have no doubt this sort f thing is facilitated by the anti-semitism of their parents. I cannot imagine this happening to a black child or Muslim child in this day and age without being death with by the school in a robust way.

forkhandle - Unbelievable - talking of twisting! You translate 'exasperation' with the ridiculously historically facile statement "Hitler was supporting Zionism - this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews" into "blind ideological hatred."

I've directed hatred at nobody - you are totally out of order.

I am sorry Bob the Buddha - but I am upset too at this catastrophe that is in train which is really a hypocritical shitstorm in a teacup designed to destroy Labour in the elections next week - nakedly. I am upset as a Jew, who has fought against racism all my life - I am upset to see this stupid collapse of criticism of Israel into jeers of anti-semite, by the same people who care little for contemporary child refugees. As a historian, i am sick at seeing the facile manipulations of the historical record in the name of point scoring. As a libertarian Marxist I am sick of everyone being set against each other and fighting in the cheap seats. And so on.

Is Timothy Snyder also "rather second rate?"

I see no racists who wish you dead on this thread, Grinkle, and there is a Report button for you to use if you believe this.

"As a historian, i am sick at seeing the facile manipulations of the historical record."

Then stating that Ken Livingstone's historically revisionist performance yesterday was 'accurate' is doubly surprising to me.

Being accused of 'hatred' is not something I'll ever take lightly, just because I don't agree with your analysis, alongside a raft of historians. If you are a historian and an academic you should know full well that is never an accusation that should be throw at someone for merely disagreeing with you.

But what is being debated here. Yes Hitler was a disgusting revolting anti semite and we know that from Mein Kampf. Of course. What is being debated is whether as Edwin Black, Nicosia, Lenni Brenner etc argued a certainly mutually facilitating alignment was made between Nazis and German Zionists - and what did that mean. At what point was the Final solution introduced - most reputable historians will say it was not there from the start - it emerged in the context of war. That is not to say Hitler didn't fream from the age of 2 of killing all the Jews - who knows....but that does not do away with the fact of strategic alliances. This is what historians debate. Snyder is not introducing any evidence for his assertations I have read the books that do.

"who knows?"

Mein Kampf was published 1925-26. He made it quite clear what he was 'dreaming of.'

KL was talking yesterday as if Israel already existed in 1932 and Hitler 'won' elections. This is not someone whose historical analysis I'm willing to take over others.

Tanith - how convenient that you see no racism on this thread. Well, you wouldn't, would you, as it's not aimed at you?

Do you also spend your time telling silly women that it's not misogyny, it's just 'banter'? Or that black people ought to stop complaining about racism and ought instead to talk nicely to the racists?

FFS.

forkhandles - you describe yourself as a 'historian'. Would you like to give us brief background of your qualifications for this description, please?

BtoB that's shocking. Omg. The abuse DS has suffered is nothing compared to that.
#iStandWithYou#