Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

I was going to say I agree with about AC - Alastair Campbell.

Corbyn has decided to give the shower a free vote.

Oh good. I don't want bombs, but it really would have been hypocritical if he'd tried to force a whip down their throats. I wish there'd be more talk about how to cut their (ISs) damned funding.

good, I'm glad. It does need to be a free vote when it is a matter of conscience as launching bombs is. It transcends party lines.

Corbyn has decided to give the shower a free vote

Hard to see how he could have done much else, TBH. Yes there can be a certain principle in refusing the party whip, but 428 times?? Surely that involve a certain loss of authority under the current circumstances?

There was an excellent Labour NEC member on Radio 4 news on the World At One, I think it was Pete Wilson. He said Blair whipped the vote on Iraq and Corbyn should do it and who do they (i.e. the shower) think they are to go against Labour policy. He obviously likes Corbyn, but he said he is too "soft" and always has been. I think a lot of the left wingers (although there aren't many among the MPs) will be upset about Corbyn's decision.

Pete Willsman, possibly. Labour need a few more like him to take the shower on.

Trump does it again. The guy is incredible. If he wins, the entire world will change.

"Trump aligns with Putin in accusing Turkey of siding with ISIL

Donald Trump aligned himself with Vladimir Putin on Tuesday, saying that Turkey appears to be on the side of Islamic State.

“Turkey looks like they’re on the side of ISIS more or less based on the oil,” Trump said in an interview with Sirius XM's "Breitbart News Daily" Tuesday morning, echoing comments from the Russian president on Monday.

www.politico.com/story/2015/12/trump-putin-isil-turkey-216309

We have already established that Russia is in the habit of probing NATO countries' defences by sending warplanes towards their borders. We have also established that prior to the latest incursion, Russia had crossed the Turkish border and Turkey had specifically warned Russia not to do it again.

Mr Putin naturally feels that he has to find a way of blaming someone else. Trump is in the habit of making provocative claims and refuses to back down when he is shown to be wrong, so we should not assume that he believes what he says.

As oil prices have halved over the last 18 months, and Turkey is a big trader with Russia, his latest speculation is unconvincing and it is doubtful that even Putin believes it. However his allegation is a figleaf for Russia's actions.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34973181

"The Russian President, Vladimir Putin, has suggested that the decision by Turkey to shoot down a Russian military aircraft a week ago was "dictated by the desire to protect the oil supply lines to Turkish territory".

His remarks at a news conference on Monday implied that the Turkish government was not only complicit in the smuggling of oil produced in areas of Syria controlled by Islamic State (IS), but also so heavily committed to this trade that it was willing to provoke an international crisis to protect it.

It is doubtful whether Mr Putin genuinely believes his accusation.

However, by raising the issue of the possible dealings between Turkish government agencies and IS, he has the chance to gain propaganda points in his tussle with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and in some way legitimise recent Russian attacks on targets in parts of Syria that are held by non-IS rebel forces backed by Turkey.

These attacks included the destruction of a large bakery built by the Turkish IHH Humanitarian Relief Foundation, according to agency officials."
"

Erdogan says Turkey is not buying oil from Isis and the BBC comes out with an article effectively implying that Putin believes Erdogan and that Erdogan is right.

Here is a Guardian article published in 2014

"Islamic State has consolidated its grip on oil supplies in Iraq and now presides over a sophisticated smuggling empire with illegal exports going to Turkey, Jordan and Iran, according to smugglers and Iraqi officials."

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/-sp-islamic-state-oil-empire-iraq-isis

It is not yet proven with evidence that the Russian plane crossed into Turkey, and it appears that the Turkish jet was waiting for the Russian planes whose flightpath was known to them. Erdogan says that the Russian plane crossed into Turkish airspace for 17 seconds, but that is not enough time to have scrambled the Turkish jets from their base. It seems they knew the Russian flightpath and time they would arrive and were waiting for the Russian plane.

"The United States has independently confirmed Turkey's assertion that the Russian warplane it shot down last week violated Turkish airspace, a State Department official said Monday.

Spokeswoman Elizabeth Trudeau would not describe how the United States confirmed the Russian craft's flight path. Instead, she said that diplomatic efforts should focus on easing tensions between Russia and Turkey."

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-confirms-downed-russian-plane-entered-turkish-airspace-n471481

The shootdown was a message to Russia to back off in Syria but Putin is unlikely to do that. So it is still very dangerous all round as more countries get involved in the two separate alliances.

If there was in fact a message, it was obviously "do not send Russian warplanes over the Turkish border"

The same message had previously been given in well-publicised words, and was ignored.

The price of oil is now less than half what it was in 2014, and there is a world glut. Profits have collapsed.

NATO forces have recently been attacking IS's oil extraction, refining and transport assets.

'If there was in fact a message, it was obviously "do not send Russian warplanes over the Turkish border"'

No, Putin got the message that was intended to be sent which is why he said that Russia was "stabbed in the back by accomplices of the terrorists". It is very likely that the message will be sent to him again.

'The price of oil is now less than half what it was in 2014'

Yes but Isis sell their oil to the smuggling gangs at well below the current market price and all the middlemen along the chain of tankers out of Syria and into Turkey make money which funds Isis and enables them to buy weapons and keep going.

'NATO forces have recently been attacking IS's oil extraction'

They stepped it up recently after Putin embarrassed them by hitting Isis oil.

Trump, the legend, said it all yet again

"Here’s what I would do. And I’ve been saying this for a long time, I have been saying it to you. I would have — and now they’re just starting — if you remember when I said, attack the oil, because that’s their primary source of wealth. Attack the oil. People smiled, and they laughed and they thought it was a joke, and they thought it was funny. Now as of two days ago, they’re attacking the oil."

Trump was giving this advice and they laughed at him.

"Obama Follows Trump Advice, Goes After Terrorists’ Oil

November 16, 2015

U.S. warplanes on Monday attacked trucks that ISIS is using to move oil, its chief source of revenue, in a move that GOP front runner Donald Trump has been pushing for months."

www.lifezette.com/quickzette/?sz=67526

I think the goal has been achieved. Russia has fallen into a trap, it has entered Syria. Now Germany and every other country is joining in and Russia will probably be sent another message.

Trump says "America always loses, we are losing to Isis". Trump would have beaten Isis years ago.

But the trap has been set for Russia. Putin obviously knows it and is still going ahead.

The price of oil is now less than half what it was in 2014

I have anxiety about the vote tomorrow. We are entering ww3

Why are we and Germany sending planes and bombers to bomb Isis when there are already enough to do it and everyone knows that to beat them we can only do it using ground troops? The strategy doesn't seem to be one that will work in beating Isis given that the US has been bombing Isis for over a year and only Trump would have finished them off years ago. So why is everyone sending more planes in?

BBC Newsnight held their debate on the vote tonight and were probably surprised that most of the invited guests were swayed more by the arguments against bombing Isis apart from the usual Syrian they always interview who says that Assad is the problem and he is worse than Isis.

Kirsty read tomorrow's headlines and it seems that more than half the public are now against bombing.

If we go hack to the topic of the thread:

Russia has been probing Turkey by sending warplanes towards and over the Turkish border. Russia has been doing the same to Britain and other NATO countries.

Turkey has asked Russia to stop doing it.

Russia didn't stop doing it.

Turkey eventually shot down an intruder.

Mr Putin seeks to distract attention from these simple facts.

Oh, no. Mr Putin is just a pawn, didn't you know?
He barely has any political experience, no understanding of backstage politics. Such a nice person with only the interest of the common people at heart.

Same with Mr Trump. Such a caring person, concerned how common people suffer at the hands of the establishment. Such a well known philanthropist, supporting small businesses and health research across the globe. And someone who once said Kim Kardashian was a classy lady.

What's not to like about them?

Turkey has asked Russia to stop doing it.

Russia didn't stop doing it.

Turkey eventually shot down an intruder.

Don't you think it's a good job Greece has a little more self control than Turkey? Alexis Tsipras' deleted tweets. (Washington Post link, sorry).

I'd think it's Russia that's lacking self control.

I read today on the 'very reliable' STAR, that Putin has showered Syria with banned chemical weapons.
Anyone have a more reliable link to that story?
Putin seems to just be a pathological liar! He just says what he likes and does what he likes.

It's not just the Star, all of the papers are reporting it -The Times, the Mail, Independent, Mirror etc. It almost seems coordinated.

OMG, the world's gone mad, Donald Trump has only gone and done it again. He's only gone and done an interview on the Alex Jones Show.He said he won't let Alex down when he is in office. He talks about hitting Isis's oil and a whole load else.

It looks like the people are going to win. The mainstream media are going mad, the elite are in meltdown, puppet politicians are at a loss of what to do.

"Alex Jones Is A Big Fan Of Donald Trump, And The Feeling’s Mutual

“Your reputation’s amazing,” Trump tells Jones.

Republican front-runner Donald Trump appeared on conspiracy theorist Alex Jones’ show on Wednesday in a lengthy display of mutual appreciation."

www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/alex-jones-is-a-big-fan-of-donald-trump-and-the-feelings-mut#.jbEeR9WLm

"It looks like the people are going to win. The mainstream media are going mad, the elite are in meltdown, puppet politicians are at a loss of what to do."

Ffs do you really make sense to yourself?

I certainly hope you are being paid to spew this propaganda rubbish on here.

Who the fuck cares about Trump?

'Who the fuck cares about Trump?'

Are you kidding? Erdogan will certainly care about Trump and so will Isis because he will finish them in weeks. Didn't you see the interviewers at the Paris Climate Change Conference asking Obama if a future President will stick by the Paris Climate Change agreement? He said he thinks the next President will be a Democrat, but if it is Trump, the entire world will change overnight.