Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

Piglet, you are right which is why they all keep telling Putin to bomb Isis and not their sponsored and backed rebels. But, because the French people want Isis sorted out after the attack on Paris, Hollande needs help in Syria. He sked Obama and Obama said that US strategy would not change, so that is not much help for Hollande because the French people want isis beaten. So Hollande has turned to Russia and Putin said he would create a joint command for French and Russian air attacks in order to increase cooperation which will lead to Putin having to attack Isis as well as the rest of the sponsored and backed Jihadi rebels. Putin wants better relations with the West, so he will help France out. And that is why the Turkish shootdown probably happened because as all the papers are reporting, the effect of it is to "badly damaged France's drive to build an alliance with the United States and Russia to defeat the Islamic State".

And how does that explain Russia continuing to send warplanes along and over the Turkish border, ten days after being warned not to.

Because Putin's aim is to maintain Assad or second best the current regime without Assad in order for Syria not to be destroyed like Libya and Iraq and to be handed over to the Islamists who will destroy it for the benefit of the "accomplices of the terrorists" so he is trying to seal the Syria-Turkey border because Isis, Al Nusra and all the rest of them are being resupplied through that route. To secure Assad, he has to weaken the Jihadis and that means stopping all the weapons that are being shipped into them by the "accomplices of the terrorists".

Turkey said attacking the Turkmen was a red line because the Turkmen are being backed by Turkey within Syria. But for Putin they aren't a red line because that would mean that Isis and the rest of them will continue to be supplied over that border. After the jet shootdown, Putin did not desist but has stepped up the bombing near the Turkish border.

What happens next?

Don't e surprised if Turkey ups the ante yet again, but Putin is unlikely to stop. What will Hollande do? Will he demand the border is sealed and will anyone listen to him?

The five year war on Syria is a concerted attack by proxy Islamist terrorists backed by lots of Syria's neighbours who are seeking to carve up Syria, topple their government and create independent Kurdish, Turkmen controlled, Jihadi controlled and possibly allowed Assad controlled regions in what was Syria. The vultures have fed and supplied the Jihadis and turned them loose on Syria. Millions of refugees resulted and the tragedy still continues. The West says Assad must go, but even our generals are saying that if Assad and the Syrian government are destroyed, the Islamists, funded and supported, will destroy Syria and create an even bigger tragedy.

Russia wants a political solution that maintais the Syrian government and brings in the moderates, but Obama is still insisting, it seems, that Assad must go and obviously Turkey needs Assad to go after having aided the takedown of Syria for years. But France is wobbling and saying that maybe Assad can stay for a while. Someone will have to give in over the demand for Assad to go or the tragedy can't be ended.

Fox News last night was running reports that the US is not bombing lots of Isis oil facilities etc in case it causes "environmental damage". Hannity was saying how crazy is that because "environmental" stuff is not on Fox's list of priorities and they like having a go about that issue. On Hannity they said that France has recently bombed Isis's command centre in Raqaa after the Paris attack and the Fox pundits were all saying how crazy is it that no one bombed their command centre over the past two years.

Nobody cares what Fox News says.

"What will Hollande do? Will he demand the border is sealed"

LOL. Do you have any idea how long that border is?

'Nobody cares what Fox News says.'

They care in America because there is an election coming up and Fox is the number one news network and most Republican politicians (apart obviously from Trump ) don't cross Fox.

'LOL. Do you have any idea how long that border is?'

No but I expect that Hollande and Lavrov do.

'Lavrov has backed Hollande’s proposal to close off the Syria-Turkey border, considered the main crossing point for foreign fighters seeking to join Isis.'

If Hollande ups the ante and says French troops will be put there, then Erdogan will have a problem. But I doubt Hollande will do that.

Nobody cares what Fox News says in America just like nobody cares what Daily Mail writes in the UK. They are both peddlers of bigoted nonsense, not serious news outlets.

And you love them both just like you love Trump and UKIP.

I don't love Fox but I do love the Daily Mail.

Did you miss the TV show when Blair's former chief of staff told Andrew Neil that the paper the politicians fear most is not a Murdoch paper, it is the Daily Mail - the paper of Middle England?

The Mail sets the agenda and so often does Fox. Modernisers try to keep the Mail and Fox sweet.

So you don't know how long Turkey-Syria border is? Let me help you: It is about 910 km, nearly twice the maximum width of the UK and 40% longer than the maximum length (north-south) of the UK.

' It is about 910 km, nearly twice the maximum width of the UK and 40% longer than the maximum length (north-south) of the UK.'

But how much of the Turkmen area near the Turkmen mountain is supplied with roads on which the oil convoys and resupplies for Isis and the Jihadis can be passed through? The Russians have been bombing those roads as Channel 4 News showed us.

Assad's forces don't want to fight all of the Turkmen, they only want to cut off the supply routes to the Jihadis.

A Turkish newspaper, Cumhuriyet, has reported that Turkey is supplying weapons to the Turkmen who shot at the pilots. As a result the journalists have been arrested and face trial for treason and espionage. (RT link, sorry). Turkey is jailing more journalists whilst claiming to have a free press.

Putin ups the ante on the "accomplices of the terrorists". Says he showed at the meeting in Turkey at Antalya pictures taken by Russian pilots of oil tankers leaving Isis areas going to Turkey day and night and says it is difficult to believe but not impossible that Turkey knows nothing about this and he also mentions that it is against UN rules to take oil from terrorists.

Oh dear, Hollande now talking about the huge number of trucks too at the live meeting in Moscow between Putin and Hollande where French plans for an anti-Isis alliance were badly damaged by the Turkish shootdown of the Russian plane. The "accomplices of the terrorists" are in a spot of bother, a bit of a pickle.

Nobody in Turkey believes that there is free press. Have any of you been following what Erdogan has been doing to TV stations and newspapers over the past 5 years or so? Owners of independent news sources have practically all been forced to sell, go bankrupt, or flee the country and funny enough, the new owners are great fans of Erdogan. Journalists don't dare write anything critical of the government, lest they join the 28 journalists already in jail.

Btw, that Cumhuriyet article (cover) was six months ago, in May 2015. See the picture.

'Have any of you been following what Erdogan has been doing to TV stations and newspapers over the past 5 years or so?'

Yes you are right, I have followed it. I know that you have been against Erdogan for a long time. I used to think he was OK. He did a lot of good things, he did reduce the military's control and arrested lost of plotters, he did well for the Turkish economy and he did make peace with the Kurds. But he has now made huge mistakes that will come back to haunt him. He made the fatal mistake of joining the war of teh vultures to break up Syria and in the process kicked off the Kurdish problem again, there are millions of refugees now in Turkey and lives ruined in Syria, and now he has probably burned his bridges with Russia which was beginning to be a good partner as Putin said today whch is why he can't understand why it was thrown away.

He believed the vultures when they told him Assad would fall easily, but they were all wrong and five years later Assad is still here.

"I know that you have been against Erdogan for a long time. I used to think he was OK."

As I keep telling you: You think you understand stuff, but you don't.

"He did a lot of good things, he did reduce the military's control"

Such nonsense makes me want to reach out through the screen and kick your nose in Just how ignorant and clueless can one person be, and STILL pretend to be knowledgeable on every fucking thread about world affairs?

Erdogan curbed the powers of the military for his own reasons: To make sure that the army couldn't take him down as he turned the country away from its secular traditions and into religious fundamentalist territory. The army had the constitutional privilege and duty when they felt that the secular republic was in danger. No more.

"... and arrested lost of plotters"

So you still believe those lies? Erdogan fabricated lies about "plotters" in order to jail the entire top brass of the military, many journalists, and everyone else he felt threatened by. Hundreds of them spent years in jail. They are now all being freed because there was no evidence and there was no such coup plot. Who the hell has ever heard of a coup plot that involves 500 people including journalists, anyway?

"he did well for the Turkish economy and he did make peace with the Kurds"

He did fuck all. Interest rates dropped around the world, not just in Turkey. This allowed the country to get out from under the high interest obligations of its national debt. It was pure luck that this happened when Erdogan was in power.

Re Kurds - He negotiated with Kurds for his aspirations of regional leadership. That ended once he saw in elections that the Kurds' political party got over 10% votes and got into the parliament, significantly reducing AKP's seats. He quickly went on to actively promote unrest in the Kurdish-majority East, and restarted military operations in Kurdish cities.

That is the man you thought was oh so great. And that is how little you still understand the situation, claig. Honestly, I don't understand how you still go around pretending you understand stuff. Anyone with a bit of intellectual honesty would namechange in shame, FFS.

want to reach out through the screen and kick your nose in

I think you need to calm down Cote it's only an internet thread
threatening to kick someone in the face because you dont like what they are saying
kinda getting things out of proportion dont you think?

If Claig is an emissary of some organisation paid to promote propaganda on mumnsnet then you are playing right into his or her hands by flying off the handle and thereby losing credibility.

'As I keep telling you: You think you understand stuff, but you don't.'

I don't think I understand things, I constantly change my position when I find I was wrong. I was wrong about Erdogan. Unlike you I didn't mind if he brought back headgear for Muslim women because for me it was about democracy and if the Muslim women wanted to wear that in universities, I thought that was OK. But I didn't realise that his Islamisation would spread across the regin and involve supporting Islamists in other countries against secular regimes. I was wrong about him.

'Such nonsense makes me want to reach out through the screen and kick your nose in'

There is no need for football hooligan type behaviour. We are not ina House of Commons subsidised bar.

'Erdogan curbed the powers of the military for his own reasons: To make sure that the army couldn't take him down as he turned the country away from its secular traditions and into religious fundamentalist territory. The army had the constitutional privilege and duty when they felt that the secular republic was in danger.'
Yes and I thought Erdogan was right to do that because teh army can't dictate in a democracy. Where I went wrong is in not realising that Erdogan's Islamisation would spread to other countries and create terrible suffering there. I thought it would be confined to Turkey.

' Erdogan fabricated lies about "plotters" in order to jail the entire top brass of the military, many journalists, and everyone else he felt threatened by'

I think the threats were real and that a Deep State existed within Turkey which did threaten Erdogan and he dealt with them.

'He did fuck all.'

No he did more than interest rates. He created good growth rates for the Turkish economy and ordinary people in Ankara etc and his Muslim base did well economically which is why he was popular.

'That ended once he saw in elections that the Kurds' political party got over 10% votes and got into the parliament, significantly reducing AKP's seats. He quickly went on to actively promote unrest in the Kurdish-majority East, and restarted military operations in Kurdish cities. '

Absolutely, he messed that up and some of that is due to Syria where he has been bombing the Kurdidh areas etc because that has stoked up Kurdidh independence ambitions again.

'I don't understand how you still go around pretending you understand stuff'

I don't understand everything, but a 99% accuracy rate is not to be scoffed at and when it comes to Donald Trump, few are better informed than me. Let's "clean house". Trump 2016!

'If Claig is an emissary of some organisation paid to promote propaganda on mumnsnet'

No organisation could afford me, not even Trump 2016.

The nonsense this person spews on here, pretending to know it all which clearly knowing nothing much at all fucking boils my blood.

There can never be an informed, insightful thread about world affairs on MN because claig spam-bombs it with hundreds of verbose posts full of disinformation and half-baked conspiracy theories until everyone is gone and he just talks to himself.

Liked Erdogan because he did lots of good things, did he now?