Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

'Liked Erdogan because he did lots of good things, did he now?'

Yes I am afraid he did, which is why he won so many elections and survived for so long against Deep State plots and plots to oust him. But now his downfall will begin because he made too many mistakes.

'knowing nothing much at all fucking boils my blood.'

You need to take a chill pill, the internet is not good for your health and the number of broken screens you have gone through trying to kick people's noses in is a total waste of time and money because no one felt a thing.

It's actually pretty irritating reading so much uninformed speculation about a serious situation...and one that has an extensive backstory so widely documented in credible news sources.

I'm all for political debate and discussion, but it's not really effective without a common core understanding of the situation (no offence intended).

Constant references to elites, establishment, new world orders etc are simply question marks in arguments substituting a lack of knowledge. Which is fine, but ill-combined with expressions of political understanding IMHO.

"I thought Erdogan was right to do that because teh army can't dictate in a democracy."

Do you think it is easy to have a secular country with over 90% Muslim population? There had to be a guarantor and that was the army. Now there is no more guarantor and the country is sliding fast towards an Iran-style Islamic regime.

"Where I went wrong is in not realising that Erdogan's Islamisation would spread to other countries and create terrible suffering there. I thought it would be confined to Turkey."

And that would be OK? Who cares what happens to Turks, right?

"I think the threats [coup plot] were real and that a Deep State existed within Turkey which did threaten Erdogan and he dealt with them.

The coup plot theory was completely fabricated. This is now well known.

The prosecutor who threw all those hundreds of people in jail under that coup plot umbrella had to run away from Turkey because it got obvious that those charges were made up and he was about to be charged himself.

I don't mind educating you about all this, claig. But I do mind the nonsense you spew on these threads and leave no space to people who might actually have something rational to say.

I don't recall mention of new world order on here (?) but the notion of elites is pretty much a mainstream idea...unless we are talking elite reptilians I suppose

'Constant references to elites, establishment, new world orders etc are simply question marks in arguments substituting a lack of knowledge. Which is fine, but ill-combined with expressions of political understanding IMHO.'

I think they are knowledge that you lack but I have said much more than that about Erdogan, Hollande, Putin and Turkmen and that there would not be world war over this and why I think it was done to put a spanner in Franco-Russian alliance to defeat Isis. I have contributed far more factual information than you as well as information on the elites behind events.

suzanne - You clearly haven't seen many threads featuring claig. Stick around and you will hear all about the New World Order, the elites, UKIP, etc. It's never-ending. And now we have his Trumping.

I really REALLY wish MN would add an "ignore poster" option at some point.

"information on the elites behind events."

What information? All you've got is speculation.

I've been on a few threads with Claig...we are old buddies :o

'"I thought Erdogan was right to do that because teh army can't dictate in a democracy."

Do you think it is easy to have a secular country with over 90% Muslim population? There had to be a guarantor and that was the army. Now there is no more guarantor and the country is sliding fast towards an Iran-style Islamic regime. '

I agree with you. I was wrong about that. I have never lived in a Muslim country, I only base it on democracy here. i now understand that unfortunately the choice is sometimes between democracy and army if a country is not to slide into control of Islamists. I didn't like the fact that the Eqytian Army killed so many Muslim Brotherhood when they had won the election and sentenced 500 of them to death including the former Prime Minister or President who won a democratic election, and I still don't like it, but now I understand it.

'And that would be OK? Who cares what happens to Turks, right? '

Yes, I tend to believe in self-determination and non-interference in the sovereignty of other countries. I don't think we have a right to intervene if a country chooses that path with electing Erdogan.

'But I do mind the nonsense you spew on these threads and leave no space to people who might actually have something rational to say.'

I'm not stopping you. I just disagree iwth you on lots of isues like Fox News and the Daily Mail and Trump and Farage and Syria, it is you who constantly call me a bigot, an idiot who spouts nonsense and who wants to kick my nose in for holding what you think are nonsensical views which I think are mostly accurate but do acknowldege are sometimes wrong as over my previous view on Erdogan.

'All you've got is speculation.'

Yes but informed speculation.

'I've been on a few threads with Claig...we are old buddies'

We most certainly are

"Yes, I tend to believe in self-determination and non-interference in the sovereignty of other countries."

I didn't say UK should interfere in Turkey's internal affairs. I said you are wrong to applaud Erdogan's crippling of the army, which was a trusted ally of the secular republic. And you did that because you are not knowledgeable about that part of the world and your "analyses" make no sense.

"it is you who constantly call me a bigot, an idiot who spouts nonsense"

I didn't call you a bigot. I called Trump a bigot, and he is.

I did not say you are an idiot but you must have read between the lines.

"what you think are nonsensical views which I think are mostly accurate but do acknowldege are sometimes wrong as over my previous view on Erdogan."

Your views are not "mostly accurate". You think you understand but you don't, because one needs a bare minimum of knowledge to differentiate between information and complete rubbish and you don't have that minimum base. So any old nonsense looks legitimate to you and that's what you keep posting.

'I said you are wrong to applaud Erdogan's crippling of the army, which was a trusted ally of the secular republic.'

I don't think I was wrong because I believe in democracy and Erdogan was elected democratically and I think that Erdogan was right that there was a plot against him, in a similar way to how the Turkish army have deposed elected leaders before. My symapthies are with democratically ekected leaders because I would not like the army to depose an elected government here either.

'And you did that because you are not knowledgeable about that part of the world and your "analyses" make no sense. '

No, my analysis was based on principle and the supremacy of democracy over an unelected army and I still think Erdogan was right to crush it. I think Erdogan did good things and I don't think that was the wrong thing to do. However, i think he ha messed up with the Syrian war and that has been teh mistake that will bring him down.

'I didn't call you a bigot.'

OK, I apologise, I thought you did.

'So any old nonsense looks legitimate to you'

No it doesn't, that is why I disagree with you.

"I think that Erdogan was right that there was a plot against him"

So you will stubbornly insist on the validity of something that has actually been proven to be false? All those people jailed under suspicion of that plot are now freed, and the prosecutor of that case has run away from Turkey. Everybody knows now that "coup plot" was a lie.

Except claig, who thinks that Erdogan was right

" my analysis was based on principle"

Analysis should be based on facts, not your personal principles.

Your method of analysis is called bias.

Just googled Ergenekon, you are right that charges have been dropped by the Supreme Court against a lot of teh suspects. Erdogan claims he was deceived

"Erdoğan claims he was ‘deceived’ in Sledgehammer, Ergenekon probes
...
“I and the whole country was misdirected and deceived with these opeartions which mixed up truth and lies, correct and the wrong,” Erdoğan said, arguing that “Turkey witnessed a coup by a structure nested within the state which attempted to seize the country.”

www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa_erdogan-claims-he-was-deceived-in-sledgehammer-ergenekon-probes_375773.html

It seems that he is pinning the deception on his enemy the Gulen organisation.

As a conspiracy theorist, the whole Ergenekon trial represents a fascinating case study and I have my guesses as to why Erdogan claims he has been deceived but I have not looked into it enough so can't say for sure.

The Turkish Army has deposed democratically elected leaders four times so I doubt that Erdogan was wrong in his original suspicion. Why it has unravelled is a different matter and could be due to all sorts of deals behind the scenes, but I don't know because I have not looked into it.

'Your method of analysis is called bias.'

Absolutely, my view of the importance of democracy is due to my upbringing in a democratic country which has affected my perception and biased me towards it. If I was born in North Korea then maybe I would not see democracy as being so important.

"US knew flight path of plane downed by Turkey: Putin

President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday that Russia had given prior information to the United States of the flight path of the plane downed by Turkey on the Syrian border.

"The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes' flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time," Putin said at a joint press conference with French counterpart Francois Hollande in the Kremlin.

Ahead of the Hollande talks, Putin and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan traded barbs, with the Russian leader saying he was waiting for an apology and Erdogan ruling out any such move.

Putin on Thursday dismissed as "rubbish" Turkey's claim that it would not have shot down the jet if it had known it was Russian.

"They [our planes] have identification signs and these are well visible," Putin said. "Instead of [...] ensuring this never happens again, we are hearing unintelligible explanations and statements that there is nothing to apologise about."

news.yahoo.com/us-knew-flight-path-plane-downed-turkey-putin-202631534.html

Of course I am right. And you are wrong. Again.

"It seems that he is pinning the deception on his enemy the Gulen organisation"

Gulen's organisation was Erdogan's accomplice until recently, when they had some sort of disagreement over division of the huge riches they were sucking off the public coffers and now Erdogan blames everything on Gulen's people.

"As a conspiracy theorist, the whole Ergenekon trial represents a fascinating case study and I have my guesses as to why Erdogan claims he has been deceived"

It's because he can't very well come out and say "I lied and threw all these people in jail because I wanted to make sure nobody can prevent my Islamisation of this country".

"but I have not looked into it enough so can't say for sure."

As opposed to all else you looked into enough? Don't make me laugh.

"The Turkish Army has deposed democratically elected leaders four times"

There have not been 4 coups d'etat in Turkey.

The times when the military took power, the "cleaned house" (as you put it) and withdrew so elections could take place. Turkish military has never held on to power and Turks trust the army much more than they trust politicians.

" so I doubt that Erdogan was wrong in his original suspicion"

Are you really this resistant to reality? There was no coup plot. The courts admitted it. Erdogan admitted it. The prosecutor ran away. What the hell is wrong with you?

'Your method of analysis is called bias.'
Absolutely

This isn't something to be proud of

'The reaon he has switched is politics. The prosecutors are after him for financial scandals. He has probably reached a deal.

"He has reversed himself not because of any pangs of guilt, analysts say, but for the simple reason that the same prosecutors who targeted the military with fake evidence are now going after him.
...
But now, as a sweeping corruption investigation focuses on Mr. Erdogan and his inner circle, a centerpiece of his strategy to survive politically is to discredit those military trials . The most sensational allegation from the inquiry emerged late Monday night in the form of a leaked telephone call that appeared on YouTube and purported to detail a conversation in which Mr. Erdogan, worried about the unfolding investigation, instructed his son to hide tens of millions of dollars. Another tape was leaked Wednesday night that purported to reveal a conversation in which Mr. Erdogan told his son to hold out for more money that was being offered in a business deal."

www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/world/europe/turkish-leader-disowns-trials-that-helped-him-tame-military.html?_r=0

The Gulen lot were with him and were the judges in the trials, then they split with him and Gulen is in the US and theories are that Gulen etc wanted to overthrow Erdogan.

"After rising to power in 2002, the Islamists were always on guard for conspiracies against them, and for good reason: The military carried out three coups in the previous century.

With that history in mind, the Islamists were determined to diminish the military’s role in Turkish politics."

Now the Gulen lot are after Erdogan over finance and it is many of teh same judges, so in one move he has discredited those judges who are after him now by saying they gave him wrong information on the military plot which they also judged. He has in one swoop released the military and blamed everything on Gulen while absolving himself.

"In now moving to discredit some of the evidence, Mr. Erdogan’s government is walking a tightrope, clinging to its record of democratizing the country and removing the military from politics, while putting distance between itself and the tactics employed to do so."

Erdogan neutralised the army and arrested lots of generals. They are no threat to him now. Now he has pinned it on Gulen who is his current threat. It doesn't mean the coup did not exist, it is just that he neutralised it and now needs to neutralise Gulen.

'This isn't something to be proud of'

It is realistic. We all have biases. i like the Daily Mail and you don't because I think it's principla values are right and you don't. That is a bias.

'With that history in mind, the Islamists were determined to diminish the military’s role in Turkish politics.'

Erdogan and the Islamists weren't going to wait until they were toppled so they stitched the army up first. It is understandable given the history of what happened before.

In Egypt, Erdogan's fellow Islamists, the Muslim Brotherhood, were toppled by the army and lots of people were killed and 500 of them have been sentenced to death including the elected Prime Minister or President. Erdogan wasn't about to wait for that to happen, he was jumpy. He moved first.

'clinging to its record of democratizing the country and removing the military from politics'

That was the right thing to do in a democratic country.

And as for the prosecutor of the Ergenekon case fleeing the country, wouldn't you?

Erdogan has only hit him with an arrest warrant for treason. He's one of the Gullen lot. He doesn't stand a chance. I don't know what the penalty for treason is in Turkey but my guess is the prosecutor didn't want to wait to find out. He hightailed it out of there leabving the shirt off his back. He's dealing with Erdogan, the man who ordered a Russian plane to be shot down and says he has nothing to apologise for. This guy doesn't mess about. He means business. Erdogan has only threatened Germany with no longer extraditing criminals unless they extradite the prosecutor back to him.

Heaven knows I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but even I am beginning to believe that this talk of an Erdogan mafia clan may have a scintilla of truth to it.

This was a thread about a Russian military jet being shot down by a Turkish F15. It has turned into a bunfight about bullshit. Claig, stop with the spam like posts and get back on topic, though I'm sure, like another arsehole poster (who's no longer around), you love the attention.

Journalists are being targeted in Turkey as Erdogan doesn't want what his government is doing to be exposed. Mind you, Barrett Browning is doing fuck knows how many years in the US for publishing a hyperlink, so go figure.

'It has turned into a bunfight about bullshit.'

I agree but I didn't start the bullshit. All I said was that I agreed with Cote that Erdogan is not an OK guy. I should have just said he was alright.

'you love the attention.'

No, I don't attack any other posters and say that I want to kick their noses in and I prefer it if they don't attack me for expressing my opinion. Maybe you love that sort of attack, I don't.

'Russia will pull out of the US-led coalition fighting Islamic State in Syria if there was any repeat of the shooting down of its fighter jet by Turkey, Vladimir Putin has warned.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/27/russia-will-pull-out-of-syria-coalition-if-downing-of-jet-is-repeated-says-putin

That is exactly what the parties who wanted to damage the Franco-Russian alliance want, so unfortunately another incident forcing Putin to pull out is something that could possibly happen again.