Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

McInerney is the former Vice Chief of Staff for the US Air Force so that is high up. The good news is he is saying that Obama will try and calm things down and that probably the signal to France was given not to invoke Article 5 of the Nato Treaty after the attack on France.

In my opinion, Obama has done a great job in not intervening all out in Ukraine or in Syria. But I think there are factions probably plotting to escalate things and hopefully Obama wil be able to contain everything and keep the factions under control.

'Of course you would be watching Fox News'

Fox has top generals and top US politicians on. The US is the number one power in the world and if you want to understand what is going on, it is better to watch Fox News and listen to top US generals and politicians like Donald Trump rather than to listening to Turkish TV. The buck stops in America and that is where key decisions are made.

Claig is a self-confessed conspiracy theorist, UKIP fan, Daily Mail reader, and supporter of Donald Trump for US President who always talks about "the elite" without a clue about who they might be or what they might be doing. According to claig, "the elite" brought down the towers on 9/11, orchestrated the climate change debacle (which claig denies exists), and are behind every single problem in the world, economic or socio-political. Nothing wrong with conspiracy theories. They are just another take on a situation. There are many. There is no 'objective' or 'true' account anyway, in case that's not obvious. Some things Trump says are purely idiotic, but someone who is rich in their own right, who won't take bribes is an attractive proposition to some (many). I wouldn't vote for him - but anyone who isn't in politics for empire building makes a change. Climate change is another red herring, to make riches for certain interested parties. Climate change exists alright and there's no downside to moving to green, but this is another issue with too many snouts in trough. Too many groups and individuals chasing power, riches, imposition of their own world view. Conspiracy theories are well worth a shot. I know many people who never touch mainstream news any more.

Claig, Obama wants to reduce the population, he said so to David Attenborough, that's Michelle Obama's agenda too. The bank of England ran out of ideas and were asking the public for ideas a few weeks ago.

It is like snakes and ladders

If that analogy holds Claig then the outcome will be determined more by luck than clever strategy?

Which brings me to my problem with theories about elites pulling the strings
I don't doubt that there are groups who would like to bend history to serve their interests, but I cant see how events can be orchestrated precisely enough.

Too many variables to control
Too many ways for things to backfire
Unintended and unexpected consequences

Was turkey saying "We are the leaders in this region. You Europeans need to consult us and get our agreement before you interfere in our region"?

'Obama wants to reduce the population, he said so to David Attenborough, that's Michelle Obama's agenda too'

They all do, that is part of the elite's global warming agenda. But I am an optimist, it won't work. I heard the former indian adviser on global warming on Radio 4 this morning. He said India won't cut back carbon emissions and expects its population to grow from 1.25 billion by another 400 million over the coming decades. They can't stop humanity's progress howver hard they try.

'The bank of England ran out of ideas and were asking the public for ideas a few weeks ago.'

Corbyn has got lots of ideas, but they won't be listening to him. Even hs own party will tell him to STFU.

My point was war reduces population, war makes money for private companies who then spend.

'It is like snakes and ladders

If that analogy holds Claig then the outcome will be determined more by luck than clever strategy?'

Absolutely, the world works on the law of unintended consequences. As Robert Burns said, "the best laid plans of mice and men often gang awry".

I am an optimist, they won't beat India, they won't beat humanity. The people will win and Donald Trump will win.

'My point was war reduces population, war makes money for private companies who then spend.'

Absolutely. If you look at WW1 it seems crazy to waste human life like that in such huge numbers. War can be stopped if common sense prevails.

"Some things Trump says are purely idiotic, but someone who is rich in their own right, who won't take bribes is an attractive proposition to some (many)."

That is a line of thought that seems to make sense but has failed over and over again when wealthy people were voted in to lead a country. Especially in America, where vast amounts of money is taken from donations for presidential campaigns. Those are de facto bribes, in expectation of support for various issues when the candidate gets elected.

Population is likely to drop of it's own accord as countries modernise and birth rates decline

Don't forget just how wrong Malthus was in his predictions
As are most people, experts and non experts alike

So pull up a chair
Anything can happen

"he US is the number one power in the world and if you want to understand what is going on, it is better to watch Fox News"

Absolutely not. Fox News is the Daily Mail of the US - shallow & sensationalist nonsense, full of airheads mouthing off, used daily as a Republican mouthpiece to spew lies about Democrat politicians.

As I said, not at all surprising that you are a fan of Fox News, though.

Var123

More like after many warnings to Russia, over a long period of time, to stop mucking about with the border, they felt like they had to do something to be taken seriously.

From reading some UK newspapers it would be easy to think that this was the first time it's occurred....not true at all.

And I would be interested to know how many violations would have to occur (if Russia was participating in a war on a British territory border) before the UK would enforce its polite requirement to back off.

Not suggesting what happened was good or right but the Daily Mail doesn't quite capture the complexities of international politics very often now does it

Var123,

Daily Mail comment in NO WAY directed at you, to be clear.

'As I said, not at all surprising that you are a fan of Fox News'

I am not a fan of Fox News. I think it is full of spin. I think our Oxbridge teenage whizzkids are spinners, but they are nothing compared to the spinners on Fox News.

But, I can see past the spin. Fox News is a very important news outlet because it hosts very important political figures and top generals and military strategists of the most powerful country on the planet. That is why it is important. If you read between the lines and swerve past the spin, you can get an idea of what is going on and what is likely to go on.

Fox don't like Trump, but their viewers love him. He temporarily boycotted Fox because he said they were treating him unfairly. But they need him for their ratings and he needs them because Fox News fans love him. They can't stop Trump because they can't stop the people which is why they have to have Trump back on.

"Ratings: Fox News Channel No. 1 Cable Network for Third Quarter"

variety.com/2015/tv/news/fox-news-ratings-donald-trump-republican-debate-1201605165/

Don't underestimate Fox. I'll be tuning in to see what Donald Trump has to say about all of this, and my guess is that Putin and Erdogan will too.

"I can see past the spin"

Bless You think you can see past the spin. Just like you think you can see "the elite" lurking everywhere. Or was that the Illuminati?

On the Turkey, Russia, ISIL situation, I thought I'd share this :

mobile.todayszaman.com/columnist/amanda-paul/defeating-isil-will-take-much-more-than-military-action_405146.html

(Not sure how to link it).

It's just a reminder that we need to see Russia, Turkey et al, to cool off and also encourage the UK and Europe to not get any more involved ... The whole idea of ISIL is to inflame the West and Europe and draw them into war.

What better way can ISIL (or any other interested country) do this than sending in home grown extremists to cause disruption and death like we've recently seen all to bring about hate, anger and an us-and-them mentality.

Also the Russian and Turkey issue I believe is just another way in which ISIL are causing division and making it look like everyone needs to take sides and take action.

Personally I am so pleased that Russia have been striking to loosing the grip of ISIL, but who really knows Putin's intentions? I think that there is more to the Russua and Turkey episode than we know and this is our most immediate problem ... Meanwhile people are scrambling to take sides and scrambling to right the wrongs that have taken place and yet we could very well just be playing into the hands of the enemy here, because everyone is so inflamed and fearful.

It will take more than military action to fix this (as stated in the article) and I think we ought to be very careful.

'Or was that the Illuminati?'

I think that is a boardgame about the Bavarian masonic movement formed in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt. I don't think it has anything to do with the current elites.

"They can't stop Trump because they can't stop the people"

That's what you said about UKIP, too. Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for the rest of us), for every ignoramus voting for hate-filled bullshit peddlers, there are many more voters choosing the other guy.

All Donald Trump will succeed in doing if he gets on the election ballot will be to ensure a Democrat victory, just like Sarah Palin managed to do in the last elections.

Like "we" have any choice.

"Personally I am so pleased that Russia have been striking to loosing the grip of ISIL"

Except that it wasn't ISIL Russians were bombing but the Turkmen.

'You think you can see past the spin'

I don't think it, I know it. Did I not see past Blair and the climate change game?