Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

No you don't.

They have rescued one of the pilots. Safe and back at base. Surly this in encouraging

'All Donald Trump will succeed in doing if he gets on the election ballot will be to ensure a Democrat victory, just like Sarah Palin managed to do in the last elections.'

Yes, I have said that myself. Trump may be a trick to fool the people, we don't know, we can only hope he is for real.

Go to youtube and type in Trump insider exposes Bushes and Clintons to see an interview between Alex Jones, one of the world's top political analysts, and Roger Stone, former Trump campaign bigwig. Stone says Trump is for real. It may be a trick, but we can only hope it isn't.

I appreciate this is a serious thread...but just nearly wet my pants laughing at the thought of both Putin and Erdogan tuning in to Fox to hear Donald Trump sharing his opinions about them

What on earth are you talking about? I didn't say Trump is "a trick". He is "for real" - a real, bigoted, power-hungry jackass.

Me too, Istanbulla. Clearly claig knows little about Erdogan's personality and delusions of grandeur, not to mention his English skills.

That is a line of thought that seems to make sense but has failed over and over again when wealthy people were voted in to lead a country. Especially in America, where vast amounts of money is taken from donations for presidential campaigns. Those are de facto bribes, in expectation of support for various issues when the candidate gets elected. Absolutely, but this is a 'known' in that American presidential campaigns (and everywhere) have always been run this way. It's an upfront thing. I think it's the behind the scenes elements that people are shocked about, e.g., Blair. I think that one reason why everyone is so disgusted with Blair is that he did things (and continues to do so) behind the scenes under the auspices of the Labour manifesto.

'not to mention his English skills'

When it comes to Trump's statements, Erdogan hires the best English speaking translators he can find, just as Putin and the Chinese leader do.

That you think Erdogan even cares what Trump would say about him shows how clueless you are beyond any reasonable doubt.

Does Erdogan not know who Trump is and how he will change the world? Who does Erdogan think he is to not care about Trump?

What America decides to do will affect Turkeyand the entire Middle East. The Saudis are already worried about Obama's deal with Iran and feel let down by the US. If the US switch to backing an independent Kurdish state then that is bad news for Erdogan.

Trump is a wildcard, no one knows what he will do or say next, which is why everyone tunes into Fox to find out what his latest thoughts are.

www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/sorcerers-apprentice-trump-says-he-can-predict-terrorism-feel-n469281

Donald's latest thoughts....enjoy.

Thank you, Istanbulla, there is much to cogitate on in that article.

The Donald says "it's about vision, folks".
I couldn't agree more.

Opinion piece in today's Independent. Politics is strange and alliances and allegiances due change over time as national interests come into play. No one knows how any of this will eventually turn out. Obama has done a good job, but his Presidency is coming to an end. The next US President may change things, no one can predict it yet.

"Turkey is getting desperate. Under President Recep Tayip Erdogan and his party, the Justice and Development Party (AKP), its policies toward the conflict in Syria over the past four years have been misguided and costly. When conflict broke out in 2011, Ankara mistakenly under-estimated the strength of the Assad regime and supported hardline Islamist groups seeking its downfall. In the process, Turkey also marginalised the Kurds and alienated regional powers like Iran.

Four years on, Assad looks set to hold onto power and his regime will be a central part of a transition plan, one that foreign powers were negotiating last weekend. Turkey’s regional rival, Iran, is a key player which can no longer be ignored by the West. Not only does the pro-Assad alliance now have Russian support firmly on its side, but the international community is no longer focused on defeating the regime – instead, it is concerned with defeating jihadist groups like Isis.

The shift in focus is a significant drawback for Erdogan. Years of support for, and investment in, Islamic fundamentalist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria) and Ahrar al-Sham are about to go to waste. Ankara has played a significant role in allowing Isis and other jihadists to flourish in Syria and the region. Turkey has acquiesced to jihadist groups entering Syria via Turkey as well as their use of Turkey as a transit point for smuggling arms and funds into Syria.

The Kurds in Syria, meanwhile, have established themselves as a reliable Western ally and have created, in the process, an autonomous Kurdish region that has reinvigorated Kurdish nationalism in Turkey and across the region - much to Turkey’s dismay as it continues a brutal military campaign to repress the Kurds."

www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html

"Does Erdogan not know who Trump is and how he will change the world? Who does Erdogan think he is to not care about Trump?"

Nobody cares what Trump thinks because he will never be President and he will never change the world.

Lavrov now saying that the Russians think it was a pre-planned provocation, which is what the former Vice Chief of Staff for the US Air Force was saying on Fox.

I think Putin will retaliate but I don't think he will directly attack Turkey.

I think it's far more likely he will bomb areas of Syria on the Turkish border to increase the number of refugees fleeing to Turkey or use Armenia and Azerbaijan as a proxy war between the two countries.

Thank you for the laughs Cote

If Donald Trump becomes POTUS, the world will possibly have bigger things to worry about than this thread topic...

Good article from a US Professor of History on what is going on and why the Russians are bombing the Turkmen to cut off arms supply routes to rebels fighting Assad etc and why Turkey sees the Turkmen as a red line etc

"Why did Turkey dare shoot down a Russian Plane? The Proxy War in Syria
...
Russia and Turkey are now fighting a proxy war in Syria, and have been all this fall. As of yesterday, they are not just using proxies, but are directly in conflict with one another.

Turkey and the Turkmen are carving out a sphere of influence in northern Syria and are insisting that Russia recognize it. How severe the conflict becomes depends in part on how Russia responds to this setback for its war aims. It also depends on whether Turkish goals are more ambitious, to help the al-Qaeda-led Army of Conquest take Latakia. If Jabal Turkmen is a red line for Turkey, Latakia port is a red line for Russia. Red lines have a way of turning into hot wars."

www.juancole.com/2015/11/turkey-russian-plane.html

Claig pre planned provocation by the Russians themselves?

No, riverwalk, Lavrov said they view the shootdown as a pre-planned provocation by the Turks.

Erdogan is a massive hypocrite. When Syria shot down a Turkish Phantom in 2012 he said it was unreasonable to shoot down a plane that was only in disputed airspace for a matter of seconds. My opinion is that there is something down at ground level they don't want the world to know about, namely a supply line between Turkey and Daesh, with weapons and other supplies going one way and oil going the other.

"Lavrov further accused Turkey of violating Greek air space 'some 1,500 times a year',adding that on the background of this, he did not see how Turkey could justify shooting down a Russian plane after what he claimed whats 'just 17 seconds of violation' of Turkish airspace."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3333117/Downed-Russian-pilot-picked-Syrian-army-envoy.html

I think it is starting to get clearer. I don't think it is really about the airspace violation because it has happened before and Turkey does it to Greece and the Russians do it to us etc and no one is usually ever shot down over it.

What seems to have happened is as the Sunday Express reported on Sunday that Turkey had warned Russia officially that it would take action if its airspace was violated and it was against the bombing of Turkmen since they are not Isis etc. Russia had received the warning a few days before and carried on bombing probably thinking that Turkey would not do what it said.

The shootdown is a warning of a Turkish red line. Now we will have to wait and see if Russia sticks to that red line or intends to ignore it.

Turkey must have had external agreement to carry out this policy because it potentially affects more countries than Turkey and the Turks must feel that they have strong backing or are in a strong military position against Russia or they wouldn't have risked it.

Russia can't afford, financially or militarily, to get into a war with NATO so Turkey may be in a much stronger position than Russia.

I think the Vienna agreement has pencilled in start of talks between Assad and the opposition to start on 1st January, so what is probably happening now is that Russia is trying to help Assad secure the territory he wants, and other players are backing their rebels and proxies to secure what they want before the peace talks start.

If that is the case, then this won't lead to a greater war since Russia wants a political settlement involving Assad so it wants to make it to 1st January without a wider war ruining it. So Putin will have to eat humble pie instead of going over the top in reaction.

Just to back up Cote here, I cannot believe Alex Jones of all people is being recommended as such a great source when he is such a backwards extremist.

If you've ever watched the Louis Theroux documentary (one of his early ones) about the New World Order and those who live in isolation in the American wilderness for fear that the 'elites' will one day 'get them', then you'll understand how bizarre Alex Jones truly is since the NWO is just one of the many conspiracies he backs.

He is an overzealous extremist who enjoys shouting and perpetuating ignorance from his little studio. Please do some research on him before heralding him as leader of the free world.