White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

I have lost count now of the number of people who have talked to me about Renee Eddo-Lodge's Why I No Longer Talk to White People about Race.

They seem to really really really want to talk to me about why they are not talking to me. But not really, only long enough to throw a R E-L reference at me.

It reminds me of MGTOW. If only they would.

Have you read it?
Because your post smacks of it completely whooshong over your head if you have, and demonstrates brilliantly why they're not, so bravo for that. 🙄
I'm white and I have.read it.
I thought it was thought provoking, and can see exactly why people who aren't don't want to talk about race, it makes a lot of great points.
Why is it their place to educate, its emotionally draining, then their experiences to be dismissed, minimised, demands for "receipts" or told why they're wrong - fuck that
If you really wanted to learn you'd do it yourself instead of expecting to be spoonfed.

Pencils neatly demonstrating there why the Chat board was asked for, provided, and valued by mn posters who are (shock, horror) not GC.

Maybe it’s time to let go the resentment that there are in fact non GC feminists, let them have a space on mn without consistently rubbishing it, and the people who choose to post on it, and their inclusive feminism position?

And while you’re at it, quit derailing the thread which is actually about Whits Feminism, and is only on this board because the OP and the thread were chased out of the original discussion, then chased off the Sex & Gender board to here, then pursued here by posters on a mission to demonise trans people on any and every thread.

@PencilsInSpace open your mind and read the book, and you might actually learn something.

I honestly feel like there should be a ‘this conversation does not need to desc

meant to say there should be a board called ‘this conversation does not need to descend into a rant about how trans are the biggest threats to women’.

A PP said something along the lines of expecting perhaps more from feminists than the general population of 'feminists' so to speak, I find that quite interesting because I find I expect less depending on what side of the spectrum they're at and I can never be bothered to find out. It's still interesting that Black women still can and do hold space for white women in these discussions. Apart from online I've pretty much released myself from that anguish - organise amongst Black women, everything else is noise.

And aren’t Men Going Their Own Way a near incel group of men who think feminism has ruined the world and want to create their own society with no women?

Are you comparing black women who advise you to read R.E.L to them? If so that’s just weird.

White feminism to me looks and sounds like Jess Philips and or Susan Hall. They fit this descriptor so perfectly.

Ah yes comparing black women to anti feminist mysoginistic men is not racist at all 🙄

And yet in threads where women discuss being assaulted or raped there aren't masses of posters crawling out to demand evidence (except Felix of course)

Yes the moment people mention racism loads of posters are demanding evidence and saying that people describing their life experienced aren't sufficient

So it's not treated the same at all

I didn't mean saying "we believe you" I meant the assumption that the poster is speaking the truth, in good faith and that that is sufficient for their part of their conversation

Completely agree. I am GC and not happy about transwomen in women's spaces. I can also, simultaneously, be concerned about maternity care, sexism in the workplace, girls in STEM etc. AND, still simultaneously, I can be interested in issues facing women that don't directly affect me like FGM, access to education etcetera.

In between, I find time to obsessively research new skincare options now that HRT appears to be bringing on rosacea for me, follow a number of random celebrities for entertainment value on social media, binge watch star trek and indulge my love of cooking.

And believe it or not, I still work, look after ly children, spend time with my dh, friends and family... wow, its almost like women can do and think and be more than one thing.

@Lndnmummy and @Bex5490 Right back at you.

In what world would a Back of Brown woman care what flag - CG etc you wrap yourself if you are being racist or facilitating racism or prejudice?

White women are over represented in primary and secondary education and also maternity care. There is significant research to demonstrate the harm that is being perpetuated against Black and Brown children women in these spaces. Harm that is likely to have life long consequences. So White feminists with their 'what about the men', what about YOU?

*Black or

You seem to have libeled KJK there by calling her a right wing racist.

@PencilsInSpace is it libellous to call someone a misogynist?

Re Why I No Longer Talk to White People about Race, I took her at her word and didn't read the book 🤷‍♀️

I may have misunderstood, but I did think at one point the disagreement was about whether White Feminists had actually campaigned for rights that were counter to the rights of women of all skincolours.
And I’m sure that has happened several places, like campaigning for voting rights for White women only in the late 1800’s / early 1900’s and later too in the US or SA for instance.

But I Wonder if there have been any major campaigns more recently? I can’t think of any that have outright had that outcome, or were intended to.

The fight against FGM for instance seem to be driven by women of many skincolours, religions and cultures.

That is not to say no women or indeed no feminists are racist, as evidently a number is, but that I can’t see any campaigns where racial disparity has been the aim or even not acknowledged when it has become an unintended effect?

White women are over represented in primary and secondary education and also maternity care. There is significant research to demonstrate the harm that is being perpetuated against Black and Brown children women in these spaces. Harm that is likely to have life long consequences. So White feminists with their 'what about the men', what about YOU?

I've been wanting to add something about this with regards to so called sweet, kind, angelic teachers, HCPs, and the like but I'm pretty wary of the usual response "So are you saying ALL etc etc". Suffice to say the aforementioned persona that is so readily and easily afforded to white women is what makes Black women (and other non-white groups of women) so acutely aware of them because Black women are incredibly familiar with that cloak of niceness and its ability to obscure great (potential) harm with zero accountability. All those Black school girls who apparently 'have an attitude' as described by these sweet kind teachers is of no surprise to those of us who've weathered this kind of storm since childhood all the way to the workplace < even through uni if you took that route.

IIRC a Black woman who posted on a thread commenting something along similar lines was lambasted for apparently saying white women were akin to rapists, murders and the like - for making the simple point that the harm white women have the potential to perpetuate against Black and Brown women is rather unique in the way it operates and manifests; yet the harm itself has the potential to cause lifelong trauma and devastation.

Above all else it was very very tedious because it was an apparent cue to the poster to apologise for causing offence, for tarnishing an entire group of women with one brush, to begin over-explaining her very clear point to add all manner of caveats. It was a repackaging of NAMALT, if you will.

How childish.

That's a very restrained way of describing it lol
Completely agree though!