Page 22 | White Feminism

Brefugee · 2023-08-22T09:25:38+00:00

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that. But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room. The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant. I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board. I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work) So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

ReginaRegina · 03/09/2023 04:06

Lol

redrighthand83 · 03/09/2023 07:55

LOL LOL LOL

Bex5490 · 03/09/2023 08:19

😵‍💫 oh dear…

SuperNewMe · 03/09/2023 08:31

Just typed out and deleted a response but yeah I'm not rising and think LOL is a better response 😂

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 03/09/2023 09:29

Same.
@Parabellum I am struggling with your writing style. The gist seems to be that you have chosen to believe that we are saying:
-All white feminists are a problem

Black and brown women/people are above reproach

We haven't said or implied either of those things, anywhere.

As for invoking MLK... It doesn't mean what you think it means.

We clearly don't have lynching many of MLK's frustrations are still true today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/02/08/martin-luther-king-jrs-challenge-liberal-allies-and-why-it-resonates-today/

You said a lot of other stuff too. Stuff about us living in 'your country', refugees, white family values and so on. It seems to me that vanity is more important than truth. I suspect, much like the racist faction of white feminism (and their allies), you are more angry for being called out on your racism/ support of a racist staus quo than about the harmful effects of the racism being perpetuated against non white women/people.

Thanks for showing us who you are.

Titerama · 03/09/2023 09:31

The comparisons with NAMALT and we believe her are so revealing.

White Feminism goes to great lengths to defend its supremacy.

The critical thinking standards applied to instances of misogyny patriarchy and issues around gender are wholly absent.

oynix · 03/09/2023 09:49

Uh-oh, I think @Parabellum has been drinking again.

SuperNewMe · 03/09/2023 12:07

Titerama · 27/08/2023 11:33

This if for you, FWR feminists who close ranks when a black woman challenges racism on these boards:

”
The Peril of Loyalty Politics

White feminist spaces, despite advocating for inclusion and empowerment, sometimes harbour an underlying dynamic known as loyalty politics.

It's the unsaid but often understood rule that white women will often close ranks and choose loyalty to one another over confronting uncomfortable truths when push comes to shove.

This isn't merely about sisterhood; it's about preserving privilege. For instance, if a white woman in a leadership position is accused of unfair treatment by a marginalised employee, her colleagues may rally around her without thoroughly investigating the complaint.

They might dismiss the issue as a misunderstanding rather than entertain the possibility that one of their own could be biased or discriminatory.

It's easier to uphold the image of a colleague or friend than to grapple with the realisation that they might be complicit in perpetuating inequalities.

This is just one-way loyalty politics can silence voices that are already struggling to be heard, creating a false sense of unity at the expense of true equality and inclusion.

This dynamic of loyalty can ostracise women of colour, making them feel like outsiders even in spaces that profess to be inclusive.

The danger here is twofold: not only does it perpetuate systemic inequalities, but it also erodes trust.

When loyalty is prioritised over fairness, justice, and genuine introspection, it challenges the very foundation of feminist values and further marginalizes those already on the fringes.

“

Nagela Dales

Being women who pride themselves on high standards of critical thinking, and for listening to all women, I’m sure you’ll want to read further.

You can find the whole article here

Great post
This bit especially
It's the unsaid but often understood rule that white women will often close ranks and choose loyalty to one another over confronting uncomfortable truths when push comes to shove.
This isn't merely about sisterhood; it's about preserving privilege

Titerama · 03/09/2023 18:20

Thanks @SuperNewMe. It came up on my LinkedIn feed the day this thread started, and could not be more apposite.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 03/09/2023 18:54

Titerama · 03/09/2023 18:20

Thanks @SuperNewMe. It came up on my LinkedIn feed the day this thread started, and could not be more apposite.

Thanks @Titerama and @SuperNewMe for reposting. Great article disappointed but not surprised by the first response. Perfect example of the problem.

Titerama · 03/09/2023 19:46

Diversifying your feed on social media is a really good early step for a white person to take towards being actively anti-racist.

I started doing this around four years ago, and over time, it’s brought so many brilliant thinkers and important concepts to me.

White women wanting to take a first step, here’s how to diversify your feed:

On the social platforms you use most, start to notice the ratio of black and brown people you follow, read and connect with.

Mine was pretty low. I’d never noticed or questioned it before, so noticing how low it was brought me up short.

Next start seeking out and following the posts of black and brown people in your industry, social circles and interest areas. Add in a few thought leader on anti-racism (eg Nova Reid, Reni Eddo-Lodge, Akala, Afua Hirsch).

Then read and listen with an open mind.

It sounds like not much, but it’s an important step to broaden out the things we see in our everyday social media lives, and over time it leads to more information, engagement and active listening.

Amplifying black and brown voices comes next, then actively challenging racism when you see it (in places like mn for example - eg this thread)

(Edit to add that I’m not looking for applause or cookies - just sharing one way white feminists on this board who actually do want to reduce the harm from White Feminism can get started)

SuperNewMe · 03/09/2023 19:58

Titerama · 03/09/2023 19:46

Diversifying your feed on social media is a really good early step for a white person to take towards being actively anti-racist.

I started doing this around four years ago, and over time, it’s brought so many brilliant thinkers and important concepts to me.

White women wanting to take a first step, here’s how to diversify your feed:

On the social platforms you use most, start to notice the ratio of black and brown people you follow, read and connect with.

Mine was pretty low. I’d never noticed or questioned it before, so noticing how low it was brought me up short.

Next start seeking out and following the posts of black and brown people in your industry, social circles and interest areas. Add in a few thought leader on anti-racism (eg Nova Reid, Reni Eddo-Lodge, Akala, Afua Hirsch).

Then read and listen with an open mind.

It sounds like not much, but it’s an important step to broaden out the things we see in our everyday social media lives, and over time it leads to more information, engagement and active listening.

Amplifying black and brown voices comes next, then actively challenging racism when you see it (in places like mn for example - eg this thread)

(Edit to add that I’m not looking for applause or cookies - just sharing one way white feminists on this board who actually do want to reduce the harm from White Feminism can get started)

Edited

This is exactly what I have done, over a few years too and I also don't say for applause or cookies or whatever
I just think it's a really important thing to do.
It makes you see outside of your lived experience, outside of your social circle, makes you connect with peoples views you haven't really thought about before, because why would you when it's not something you've ever come across before?
It makes you think about things you wouldn't have even registered before.
See from someone else's shoes.
I also try not to speak " over" someone, whether it be with their experience of racism, whether it's questioning it or minimising it, or like say on Twitter I'll retweet the OP without my words or take on it, just try to amplify voices.

Finlesswonder · 03/09/2023 23:04

So diversify your social media so you don't need to bother diversifying your social circle?

SuperNewMe · 04/09/2023 00:56

Finlesswonder · 03/09/2023 23:04

So diversify your social media so you don't need to bother diversifying your social circle?

Has anyone said that anywhere?

SuperNewMe · 04/09/2023 01:09

Finlesswonder · 03/09/2023 23:04

So diversify your social media so you don't need to bother diversifying your social circle?

Also, to add to my previous comment, do both.
Important in both RL and social media.
I might have a min wage job but love the fact I literally daily work with Lithuanian, Polish, Ghanaian, Eritrean, and Sri Lankan to name but just a few countries.
Chatting and having a laugh
Diversify your online presence and your RL one if possible.
Appreciate isn't always possible in RL, not like you can randomly just go up to people and chat- and learn- on what basis, and just would come across a bit weird 😬

Titerama · 04/09/2023 10:27

Finlesswonder · 03/09/2023 23:04

So diversify your social media so you don't need to bother diversifying your social circle?

Erm… no. If that’s your conclusion you’re going about anti-racism the wrong way.

Social and search algorithms lead very quickly to confirmation bias in the content we consume online. We are shown more content from the types of post and posters we engage with.

For white people, consciously diversifying their feed is a step that starts to get more balance into the content they consume daily - the content that informs world-view and perception of people, trends and events.

MsMarch · 04/09/2023 10:36

Titerama · 04/09/2023 10:27

Erm… no. If that’s your conclusion you’re going about anti-racism the wrong way.

Social and search algorithms lead very quickly to confirmation bias in the content we consume online. We are shown more content from the types of post and posters we engage with.

For white people, consciously diversifying their feed is a step that starts to get more balance into the content they consume daily - the content that informs world-view and perception of people, trends and events.

Show quote history

And I can tell you from experience, you still have to work hard to get that algorithm to actually show you the content that will diversify.

I have to go back and like multiple posts from people who don't look like me as otherwise twitter just stops showing them to me. I'd sort of understand if I was the type who likes and shares all the time but I'm not - I'm a scroller.

MsMarch · 04/09/2023 10:46

Also, thanks for the reminder - just spending some time tracking down my black and brown women (and some men) on my twitter list in an attempt to get them back into my feed!!!

DojaPhat · 04/09/2023 23:01

Finlesswonder · 03/09/2023 23:04

So diversify your social media so you don't need to bother diversifying your social circle?

Tbh this makes a lot of sense. I don't want to be befriended by a white person in order to meet their social circle diversity quota

As that poster went on to explain immersing yourself in different perspectives is as much as many people can reasonably do. I come across many white people in my day to day routines, some of them I'm very friendly with but I'd never let the conversation pass any line further than how expensive parking is on X road.

Titerama · 05/09/2023 08:29

@DojaPhat yes - how utterly insulting and demeaning, to be collected like that.

White people diversifying feeds and reading materials doesn’t require yet more effort, spoon-feeding and work from black and brown people. Frankly, it’s the very least we (white people) should do.

MsMarch · 05/09/2023 11:08

@DojaPhat I totally hear that. But I also feel a bit sad. I've met a few black women over the years who have seemed really great, but I've sensed the same reticence to be friends. I obviously completely respect that - no one has to be friends with me if they don't want to. And I've certainly been all over this thread making the point repeatedly that black and brown women have every right to be frustrated when white feminists exclude their issues.

But I also feel sad on a personal level, because those women and I also clearly had a lot in common. One in particular - we clearly had similar views on children and child rearing and our jobs were different but aligned, with some cross over. I felt like we had a lot in common and could have been friends and a useful support to each other considering we seemed to be quite similar in a lot of ways except for our skin colour.

But I'm also conscious that I'm a white South African living in the UK and if I was a black woman in the UK that would make me a bit dubious "why did this person leave South Africa? Are they one of those who didn't like having a black government?" etc etc. I think it's a perfectly valid concern (even if that's not me).

GodessOfThunder · 05/09/2023 22:16

As a woman of colour I find the intersection of class and whiteness on Mumsnet creates myopia of epic proportions in almost every post. “Karen-net” more like.

GodessOfThunder · 05/09/2023 22:18

MsMarch · 05/09/2023 11:08

@DojaPhat I totally hear that. But I also feel a bit sad. I've met a few black women over the years who have seemed really great, but I've sensed the same reticence to be friends. I obviously completely respect that - no one has to be friends with me if they don't want to. And I've certainly been all over this thread making the point repeatedly that black and brown women have every right to be frustrated when white feminists exclude their issues.

But I also feel sad on a personal level, because those women and I also clearly had a lot in common. One in particular - we clearly had similar views on children and child rearing and our jobs were different but aligned, with some cross over. I felt like we had a lot in common and could have been friends and a useful support to each other considering we seemed to be quite similar in a lot of ways except for our skin colour.

But I'm also conscious that I'm a white South African living in the UK and if I was a black woman in the UK that would make me a bit dubious "why did this person leave South Africa? Are they one of those who didn't like having a black government?" etc etc. I think it's a perfectly valid concern (even if that's not me).

Absolutely - I am always deeply suspicious of white South Africans who moved to Britain after then end of apartheid. Is that just prejudice on my part?

Lndnmummy · 05/09/2023 22:57

GodessOfThunder · 05/09/2023 22:16

As a woman of colour I find the intersection of class and whiteness on Mumsnet creates myopia of epic proportions in almost every post. “Karen-net” more like.

100%.

And I say that as a white middle class woman. It is awful and getting worse by the day.

MsMarch · 05/09/2023 23:31

GodessOfThunder · 05/09/2023 22:18

Absolutely - I am always deeply suspicious of white South Africans who moved to Britain after then end of apartheid. Is that just prejudice on my part?

Show quote history

Well, I think it is prejudice. But I don't think it comes out of nowhere. I would say though that it's nice if you can try to work through it and take each one you meet on their own merits. But i also won't deny that it is not unusual for me and dh to roll our eyes at each other and sidle away when we come across one of "those" south Africans! Because sadly, yes, there are many of them!