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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

White Feminism

598 replies

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 10:25

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
YouJustDoYou · 22/08/2023 11:33

Just as an aside, "BAME" as a term is no longer seen as an acceptable term to use.

Sunnydata · 22/08/2023 11:36

What term should we use

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 11:40

I think this is also why the new Gen Z tend to side with trans activists because the stereotype of the gender critical woman is white, older and middle class…

You are out of date! The younger zoomers and upcoming alphas are Generation Terf (especially evident amongst those from minority backgrounds! They do not believe in the Genderwoo AT ALL!)

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/08/2023 11:53

Sunnydata · 22/08/2023 10:37

Some of the problem is lived experience, by default you can’t have someone else’s lived experience. I’ve changed my behaviour since reading about micro aggressions that black people experience,
I normally make eye contact with most people I meet even strangers, but now I don’t do that as often as some find it threatening.

Bloody hell... What??? You cannot be serious. 🤣

What a way to demean and infantilise a group of people who look different from you.

Unless you are a 6'5 skin head with questionable tattoos on your face and body, it's quite big headed to assume black people would automatically find you 'threatening' for being a polite and pleasant human being. 🤣

Why would you give people this kind of power and control over your behaviour?

maltravers · 22/08/2023 11:57

roarrfeckingroar · 22/08/2023 11:29

I don't like women being silenced by other women - whether black by white or white by black. All our experiences are valid.

Hear, hear. Together we are more powerful, that’s why you see certain men sneering about “white feminism”. It’s an attempt to “Divide & Rule”. Alison Bailey and Helen Joyce are both sisters, their colour (one black, one white) is not relevant to me. I appreciate it is to AB, who will also have to contend with racism (and homophobia), similarly Sarah Phillimore will with disabilism etc but if we can only talk with and for those of exactly our profile and background we are impoverished and silenced. We can be mindful of the different problems others face based on their race, sexuality etc, but we should resist the attempt to divide us.

Rudderneck · 22/08/2023 12:05

YouJustDoYou · 22/08/2023 11:33

Just as an aside, "BAME" as a term is no longer seen as an acceptable term to use.

Yes, lots of people don't like it.

But it's instructive. Five minutes ago it was what people were told they should use.

So they are all constantly scrambling to keep up with the current correct language, that everyone is good with. Which is impossible, because in a lot of cases it is completely random. I had to smile yesterday reading here that in Australia, apparently it's rude to call people indigenous, while native is ok. In Canada, in contrast, the most recent thing among the disciples of Good-speak is the opposite, and weirdly they use pretty much exactly the same logic. Which is to say, some person decided it sounded plausible in both cases, and all the people who feel compelled to keep up with the latest fad in saying the right thing scrambled to follow.

Either they don't realize there will be a new logic five minutes into the future, or that's the point.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 12:07

Its hardly surprising that by page two there are already comments about how we shouldn't divide ourselves etc - its the same vein as 'We shouldn't see colour.'

Yes, we should. By ignoring colour we ignore the issues those woman face. It isnt divisive to protect those groups of women, and for them to need space away from us too.

There are absolutely issues with white, middle class feminism and its important to do the work to understand why and make the changes.

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:08

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 11:40

I think this is also why the new Gen Z tend to side with trans activists because the stereotype of the gender critical woman is white, older and middle class…

You are out of date! The younger zoomers and upcoming alphas are Generation Terf (especially evident amongst those from minority backgrounds! They do not believe in the Genderwoo AT ALL!)

I can fully accept that I’m probably out of date with the new generation views! I just remember a friend telling me she went to visit her son at uni last year and his friends were all apparently non binary but looked and dressed exactly like the sex they were born with…we were both a little old and confused I guess 😵‍💫

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:09

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 12:07

Its hardly surprising that by page two there are already comments about how we shouldn't divide ourselves etc - its the same vein as 'We shouldn't see colour.'

Yes, we should. By ignoring colour we ignore the issues those woman face. It isnt divisive to protect those groups of women, and for them to need space away from us too.

There are absolutely issues with white, middle class feminism and its important to do the work to understand why and make the changes.

This

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:10

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/08/2023 11:14

It's also a shame to make sweeping statements about people. I imagine some 'BAME people' feel excluded from feminism, and some may have encountered unpleasant situations.

The rest of us are not a homogenous bunch and find positives and negatives in any kind of ideological framework, including feminism.

Personally I feel the types that handwring about 'white feminism' display a more 'racist' mindset in terms of viewing people with darker shades of skin as a homogenous 'BAME' blob and are unable to appreciate that people with darker shades of skin are just as diverse as 'white' people. We don't all have the same experiences or viewpoints or subscribe to the same ideological worldviews, and not all of us appreciate self-appointed 'people of colour' who act like they speak on all of our behalf.

I have always found GC/Radfems individuals as well as groups very welcoming in any event or social gathering, even though I can be fairly open in my criticisms of feminism. It's the 'progressive' or 'libfem' types that come across as more 'racist' to me, but I don't think it's intentional. It's just ignorance due to the kind of ideological and social circles they surround themselves in.

Show quote history

I agree with all of this, and with the other pp who mentioned how the accusation is a divide and conquer one.

(If it's relevant, I'm mixed race and not perceived as white in the UK, although I am in my mum's country.)

I think even the phrase "white feminism" is one of those debate-terminating gotchas that's ultimately intended to silence women (who happen to be white).

If you (general you) have a problem with a white woman's arguments, call them out point by point. Dismissing them as wrong because they come from a white woman is a whole load of crap imo.

And although I fall under the umbrella of "BAME" or "person of colour" (gosh I hate that phrase) i absolutely agree with @NonnyMouse1337 that doesn't mean any other woman in the same category can speak for me, especially not if she's dismissing a huge bunch of women all at once.

I haven't read the thread you're talking about, op, I'm talking in general terms.

I'm immensely grateful to all the giants who have done feminist work to enable me to live the life I do, of whatever race - Allison Bailey, Jk Rowling, and those from the past too.

What's the point in isolating women in separate boxes, heaven knows we're vulnerable enough as it is.

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:11

Gwenhwyfar · 22/08/2023 11:23

"Point being the girls in Rochdale for example they weren’t just treated badly by authorities because they are female. They were treated that way because they were also poor and seen as untrustworthy, more adult, chav etc"

The problem in Rochdale was also that people were afraid of being seen as racist for calling out a particular community.

And this is also true but I believe that if the girls had have been from wealthy backgrounds with ‘posh’ accents…they would’ve been received differently by the police

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:16

This topic also overlaps with the issue of purity spirals, like dismissing feminists if they're vaguely right wing, or pro-mothers, or whatever.

Individual feminists are also allowed to have their specific focus. Say, if a feminist particularly cares about some very specific issue, say arbitrarily, the welfare of North London Hasidic Jewish women - that doesn't mean she hates black women. Or if she really focuses on the welfare of breastfeeding mothers, it doesn't mean she hates child-free women or formula feeding mothers.

OP posts:
JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:18

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:10

I agree with all of this, and with the other pp who mentioned how the accusation is a divide and conquer one.

(If it's relevant, I'm mixed race and not perceived as white in the UK, although I am in my mum's country.)

I think even the phrase "white feminism" is one of those debate-terminating gotchas that's ultimately intended to silence women (who happen to be white).

If you (general you) have a problem with a white woman's arguments, call them out point by point. Dismissing them as wrong because they come from a white woman is a whole load of crap imo.

And although I fall under the umbrella of "BAME" or "person of colour" (gosh I hate that phrase) i absolutely agree with @NonnyMouse1337 that doesn't mean any other woman in the same category can speak for me, especially not if she's dismissing a huge bunch of women all at once.

I haven't read the thread you're talking about, op, I'm talking in general terms.

I'm immensely grateful to all the giants who have done feminist work to enable me to live the life I do, of whatever race - Allison Bailey, Jk Rowling, and those from the past too.

What's the point in isolating women in separate boxes, heaven knows we're vulnerable enough as it is.

Show quote history

I don’t disagree with this and it wasn’t me who has used the term white feminism. I hadn’t even heard of it tbh. My original point was just that in order to have a productive movement that represents all women, all discrimination should be challenged within it. In the same way that I think in a meeting brought about to discuss the rights of black people, any sexism should be challenged and squashed. Other wise the movement isn’t representative of all the people it’s there to support.

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:22

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 12:16

i know i said i was out but I'm back to say:
White Feminism (note the capitals) is A Thing
more here:
Here's What White Feminism Is – And Why We Really Need to Talk About It - Everyday Feminism

and isn't to be confused by feminism that is practiced by white women (or any other people come to that)

I've just read the transcript of the video in your link and I must say I'm even less convinced than I was before.

Their example was - when fighting the gender wage gap, its an oversight not to acknowledge that Black and Latina women (their words) are likely to be paid even less. I point you to my argument above that individual feminists are allowed to have specific focuses and its not our responsibility to fight everyone's fight all at once.

If I volunteer for homeless women, it doesn't mean I don't also care about women with cancer.

They also said in the video that you posted, white feminists are likely to centre "cis" women.

Hmm. I'll leave that there.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/08/2023 12:23

Can you drop a vague hint about the OT unless it's been zapped? I missed it.

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:26

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:18

I don’t disagree with this and it wasn’t me who has used the term white feminism. I hadn’t even heard of it tbh. My original point was just that in order to have a productive movement that represents all women, all discrimination should be challenged within it. In the same way that I think in a meeting brought about to discuss the rights of black people, any sexism should be challenged and squashed. Other wise the movement isn’t representative of all the people it’s there to support.

Show quote history

I gather you are the original commenter that op was referring to - just want to emphasise that I never read the thread she's talking about and so nothing I've said is intended to be a criticism/rebuttal of anything you wrote there, as I never read it.

As TAATs aren't allowed, my comments are purely in response to the comments on this thread.

DarkDayforMN · 22/08/2023 12:28

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll

Wasn’t that thread about a particular man (who is white) who has a long track record of trying to disrupt and shut down any discussion of his egregious behaviour and is known to heavily monitor this board?

Perhaps it was just an unfortunate coincidence, but on that thread any attempts to change the subject to something completely unrelated to the main topic of the thread look pretty suspicious.

amlie8 · 22/08/2023 12:29

I’ve changed my behaviour since reading about micro aggressions that black people experience,

I normally make eye contact with most people I meet even strangers, but now I don’t do that as often as some find it threatening.

@Sunnydata what do you mean? That we shouldn't make eye contact with black people? You cannot be serious?!

Now THAT sounds like white feminism – by which I mean terrified white people tying themselves in knots over imagined offences. Just relax for god's sake.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/08/2023 12:31

Wasn’t that thread about a particular man (who is white) who has a long track record of trying to disrupt and shut down any discussion of his egregious behaviour and is known to heavily monitor this board?

Oh, that thread!

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/08/2023 12:32

Women are allowed to focus on the issues that concern them the most, including white women. I don't expect white women to 'do' any kind of 'work' on my behalf as a South Asian woman. I'm perfectly capable of advocating for myself and able to join multiple groups with overlapping or distinct goals.

It would be quite arrogant of me to join a group that was predominantly white and expect them to understand everything about South Asian culture or even be extremely interested in issues specific to South Asian women. They might be concerned and sympathetic and willing to learn more, but at the end of the day, I have full agency to join or set up a group specifically for South Asian women if there are specific issues that need to be discussed or to organise and promote general awareness, campaigning activities etc. Even a South Asian group would be too broad and divided over socio-economic class, and so on.

White women are not some universal mother to fuss over and coddle everyone else. Women of different social, economic and ethnic backgrounds can come together to find common cause in certain cases (and there are plenty of things we do have common ground on) but also women can find other spaces to focus on what matters most to them.

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:35

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/08/2023 12:32

Women are allowed to focus on the issues that concern them the most, including white women. I don't expect white women to 'do' any kind of 'work' on my behalf as a South Asian woman. I'm perfectly capable of advocating for myself and able to join multiple groups with overlapping or distinct goals.

It would be quite arrogant of me to join a group that was predominantly white and expect them to understand everything about South Asian culture or even be extremely interested in issues specific to South Asian women. They might be concerned and sympathetic and willing to learn more, but at the end of the day, I have full agency to join or set up a group specifically for South Asian women if there are specific issues that need to be discussed or to organise and promote general awareness, campaigning activities etc. Even a South Asian group would be too broad and divided over socio-economic class, and so on.

White women are not some universal mother to fuss over and coddle everyone else. Women of different social, economic and ethnic backgrounds can come together to find common cause in certain cases (and there are plenty of things we do have common ground on) but also women can find other spaces to focus on what matters most to them.

I agree with all this 100%.

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 12:35

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 12:26

I gather you are the original commenter that op was referring to - just want to emphasise that I never read the thread she's talking about and so nothing I've said is intended to be a criticism/rebuttal of anything you wrote there, as I never read it.

As TAATs aren't allowed, my comments are purely in response to the comments on this thread.

Show quote history

Good to know - and I agree entirely that feminism needs to be a united thing. I just also think that a movement has to work on itself to be as strong as possible. A but like the debate you have behind close doors with your family but put on a united front in public if you know what I mean…

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 12:36

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 12:16

i know i said i was out but I'm back to say:
White Feminism (note the capitals) is A Thing
more here:
Here's What White Feminism Is – And Why We Really Need to Talk About It - Everyday Feminism

and isn't to be confused by feminism that is practiced by white women (or any other people come to that)

Everyday Feminism is the website that bought us Riley Dennis!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE-JoOQ9s7c

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Riley_Dennis

#nothankyou

Riley, You Are Not A Lesbian - Not A Feminist Either

Riley J. Dennis flew into an indignant rage upon finding that his creepy video (trying to convince gays and lesbians to stop being gay and lesbian) got a lot...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE-JoOQ9s7c

MsMarch · 22/08/2023 12:37

I'm not sure I know what "white feminism" is (and that link didn't work for me). but as a white woman who identifies as a feminist, I have become conscious over the last few years that the issues, and solutions, that I think are obvious, are not necessarily so obvious for all women because my thinking and belief system is informed by my race and sex, and also my background, education, class, nationality etc.

I am trying quite hard to take a broader view and consider other perspectives. The "easy" one is to see that women of colour have additional challenges they have to face in terms of their race as well as their sex. So the issues might be similar, but the way it impacts them or the behaviour of people around them is more severe than for me. A relatively simple example is when talking to black women working in the City - like me, as women, they've had to face the sexism and struggle to be taken seriously. But it goes further. They have to deal with racist stereotypes too and things that are irritating for me eg assertiveness being taken as aggression, are absolute deal breakers for them because of the "angry black woman" stereotype. I might whinge about mostly male management teams and boards, but at the end of the day, there's still that ONE woman who looks and sounds like me and with whom I can identify.

So I am trying to think about these issues and educate myself. I follow a lot of black female academics on twitter and am constantly shocked at the shit they put up with. Typing this, I've just realised that I haven't seen most of them recently - somehow, I suspect the Twitter algorithm has taken them off my feed. I'm going to have to go back and like a bunch of posts to get them back. But in itself, that's interesting - why does the algorithm take them away from me ?

I think in any movement, you have to make room for an understanding that while the broad principles of what you want, are fighting for and believe in are the same, there are nuances and differences in the detail and that there will need to be understanding and negotiation on that.

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