Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

I personally think reasonably well educated parents with help of tutors can prepare a child form CE. Most schools make CE Latin optional for strong candidates who've not learn it at prep (most HK children haven't), the French for the Winchester exam is GCSE standard, so likely to be of a higher standard than being taught to yr 8's in a normal state school. As the French teaching at DS2's prep was pretty dismal, we were advised by a French teacher who read the exam papers to purchase a book with all the French verbs in including all the different tenses and learn them. My French is exceedingly limited to say the least but I managed to help my DS do it. There was when my DS sat his entrance exams a field study for geography I don't know if they still require one but again I believe it's possible to get round this.
I think ultimately if your DS is a strong candidate for a school most will make some sort of allowances.

A friend made a speculative approach to Winchester about bursaries, and was told that they would probably be offered about 75 - 80%. Their income was around £50k, 2 children, and little or no equity in their small semi.

Your DS is so lucky to have parents who think ahead!

As regards your first question - preparation for CE - your best bet is simply to phone E and any others and ask them.

However my very personal point of view (knowing exactly what you mean about the perfectly adequate local independent school) is that there is a big difference between going up to a major public school "cold", as it were, and going up from a prep that sends children to that school all the time.

IME the "un-prepped" child will do perfectly well academically and may well build strong friendships but it will be less easy for them to hit the ground running, make the very best use of their time and really thrive.

You mention your DS's extra-curricular activities. The things you list are considered the very most basic activities within the curriculum at a prep. (He's still vey young so one would hope his school or your area can provide more adventurous opportunities in the next few years.)

Another thing is that S.Wales is quite far away from the Home Counties public school hub. I'm not sure you'd be doing him any favours by launching him into boarding at 13 without any "training". Particularly when a large proportion of the other boys would be used to a boarding lifestyle. Or at least a day prep that knows exactly what the public schools are like.

Of course loads of boys arrive from all over the world and manage perfectly well - but I can only speak of what I know. The constant two way communication between a good prep and prospective senior schools really can't be replicated by clever parents and tutors. Nor can the friendships and support shared by boys all working towards similar goals.

As you're thinking ahead think hard about whether you might consider stretching for a boarding prep from yr 6 ...

As I've said on numerous occassions before I have a 1 1/2 hour one way driving rule. We learnt the hard way. I also would not put myself and the the road to hell M25 between myself and any school again we learnt the hard way. The other way is to be so far away e.g. Outer Mongolia so you rarely attend the school and hire taxis, guardians etc to move your DC around have them for exeats etc. If you more than 11/2 hours away unless you have nothing to do in your life driving back and forth to school simply becomes a complete pain in the arse. Your will rarely attend any sporting event, concert, play, exeats will go far to fast and you'll feel like you've spent the whole weekend in the car, it becomes a clock watching exercise especially on Sunday. Good public transport links can make life easier (only in my dreams) but you or AN Other will still have to go to the school at the begining and end of every term unless your DC is strong enough to cart around suitcases, tuck box, lap top, weekend bags, sports kit and heaven knows what else they take bake and fourth to school. Also if you have a normal 9ish to 5ish job exeats end of term etc doesn't finish at 6 PM sometimes we finish at 1300 another time 1600 and another time 9am (why?) so you will have to take time out of work to go and get your DC also if your DC is unsettled you can just quickly pop over and sat hello during a match. I'm not saying don't do it but do think carefully about logistics for two years our DS2 was 200 miles away as a general principle I try not to look back and spend hours regretting what I've done but if I had my time over again that is one of the things I would definitely not repeat.

Wow - so many responses in such a short time. This truly is such an helpful place. Thank you all for taking the time to reply and help. Neither of us know any French but DS has just started French and it is compulsory. So hopefully in 5 years time he will be pretty good at it.

The prep school bit, I can't really do anything about. We don't really want to send him boarding any earlier as we have made a decision to not have any more children so that we can educate DS privately and give him the best we can. It is going to be hard for us to let him go at 13. Can't even really think of at 11. Probably being selfish there.
As for Eton or Winchester they are 2 ish hours from us and the hell 'M25' doesn't come in between . But we are both lucky to have flexi working.

On average how many times beside the main holidays and half terms do the schools have exeats?
On other Sat/ Sun are parents allowed to meet their sons or take them for a meal etc.?
I think if our DS is lucky enough to make it to one of such places, we will put in our utmost for 5 years to make things work.

One other question, what other schools sit in the same league as Eton and Winchester? I know Westminster and St Pauls are but both of them are primarily day schools. I would prefer DS to go somewhere where he is not left feeling homesick as his friends go home every day. Westminster also doesn't do bursaries for non Londoners, so that is out anyway.

ZFD, You mention the common activities in prep schools. Are all boys who go to Eton or Winchester very good academically (given I suppose) and are into more than 5-6 activities? Also what kind of thing would you class as adventurous? Not sure how much more we can load on an 8 year old. He already has very little free time where he can do lego, watch tv or play games on his tablet!

It is quite understandable to be thinking of all the big name public schools for anyone who is new to the ‘public school game’. I see you have mentioned all in a single post, Eton, Winchester and Harrow. All great schools, of course, but in reality, they are different animals.

I would very briefly sum up each of the 3 schools in a sentence:

Winchester: Seems to me that they do nothing else except academic work, academic work and more academic work.

Harrow: Seems to me that they do the opposite from the above but loads of extra curricula work instead.

Eton: Known to me to have a superb balance and excels in both the above.

From what you have described about your son, I’ve no doubts whatsoever that Eton would be the natural choice for him. It is understandable to feel apprehensive about the ability to pay for the whole duration of your son’s time in any of the three schools mentioned above. Their fees are more or less similar - currently running at appx. £35K per annum. But your son won’t be going until three or four years later by which time there won’t be much change from a cheque of £40K annually paying into any of the three schools above.

Realistically speaking, with your take-home income and your other commitments, it will be very difficult for you to pay full fees sending your son to any of the schools mentioned without getting any financial help. But this is not the end of the world - not yet . . .

Back to what I firmly believe Eton is your son’s natural choice, please listen to what the school’s Tutor for Admissions, Peter Mckee, has to say:

”Anyone can apply for Eton - all backgrounds, all social groupings - we want to hear from any family who thinks that this will be the right school for their son.”

And why Eton and not other schools, Peter Mckee continues:

”. . . but we want young people who are eager to get out and enjoy the other opportunities, sporting, cultural, social that being a school like this involves.”

And what about money?

Money, money, money, Mr Mckee?

”At the point of registration we don’t take into account any issues about ability to pay, we just want to meet the child and make an assessment, we can discuss the possibility of bursaries if ability to pay is an issue for that family.”

So please give the school a call!

Hi WelshParent we live in Cornwall and have a DS at Eton, and we manage OK. There are two exeat weekends in the autumn term, and one each in Easter and summer terms. Like us, you would probably qualify for Scottish leave, so you could pick up your son on Thursday afternoon and still have two whole days together. All pick up times are in the morning or at lunchtimes. DH works away from home a lot, so we can often combine trips back to school with his work travel.

DS is not that sporty, so missing matches isn't a problem for us, but attending concerts and plays usually means spending the night nearby. They also have B weekends, when Sunday chapel is in the evening. A boy can leave school after lessons on Saturday and be back at 6ish in Sunday evening.

Ah - I wasn't sure at the time I wrote it but I am now sure that I meant more than road miles when I said S. Wales is quite far away. I worry about your DS being eaten alive by hardened prep school boys after being at home with you ...

No - you don't want to pile any more activities upon an eight year old. I wouldn't worry about number of activities - just having a flexible mind and being ready to try any and everything. Maybe just ensure he has wide exposure to what's going on in the world. And that he develops a degree of independence as he gets older.

I do think it's easy to focus on simply "getting in" rather than whether a child will actually be able to cope and enjoy life (ie make the most of the infinite opportunities) throughout the five years he would spend at such a school. I always hope admissions staff are really thinking about this while they're selecting potential pupils.

"Winchester: seems to me they do nothing else accept academic work, academic work and more academic work"
Without a doubt academic work is very important at Winchester, music sport drama are always going to take second place. Winchester provides not only a very academic education but also a very intellectual education because of their unique daily div lessons. But on the other hand the school is taking my DS to a a sporting competition tomorrow, in his chosen sport (he doesn't do anything else through choice) they meet with Eton twice a year and despite the fact that Eton has a couple of very strong players (GB team) they have beaten then three years in a row! But without a doubt Winchester is probably not your first choice if your DS is mad keen and also pretty talented in the main sports (rugby which they don't offer, rowing, football I can't comment on the cricket).
I know quite a few parents with boys at both they all repeatedly say Eton suits the very strong all rounder who enjoys lots of things, a child that's sociable enjoys being part of a team, whereas Winchester suits the non conformist, the one who don't like follow a set path, the lone wolf, the geek exceptional in math one area and pretty strong in all others, a boy can have a single interest be it sporting academic musical and wants to pursue it exclusively in his own time. Petaneras will of course disagree (we have a long history of disagreeing on this but there's no hard feeling on either side I think) but over the four years my DS has been at Win Coll I've met quite a few parents with boys at both and ultimately they really should be the ones in the know as they are in the position to compare both schools and I hear the same comments over and over again.
There are no "B" weekends at Win Coll on, only the upper sixth are allowed home on Sat night and then only one weekend a half term. Boys attend chapel every Sunday they alternate each week between being free to come out of school at 9 30am and or 11 30am they have to be back by 9 PM. I understand at Eton you can meet your DS on Saturday night (could be wrong about this but I thought this is what a mum told me once) you cannot do this at Win Coll Saturday night I understand is when boys are meant to do there Div prep. Win Coll keeps parents very much at a distance, again those with boys at both imply that Eton is more welcoming to parents.

It’s not so much of a disagreement, HG, rather it’s a question of lifestyle. I cannot imagine for the life of me how a full-blooded teenage male of the modern era (never mind the Stone Age) be made to sit down day after day and presumably for the rest of his entire life, to just do academic work and nothing much else. It is simply not natural.

Since the time of Adam and Eve (if you believe in the Bible), the male species is designed to be the provider, the gatherer and fighter who goes out to hunt and bring back food to provide for the family. Needless to say, it would be most helpful if he had the brain, strength and imagination to do all these things safely and economically and to come home alive and in one piece to provide for the family.

The modern world is not much dissimilar. If anything, it’s even more competitive. Even the female species is encroaching onto most of the traditionally male arenas. With the emergence of other Third World countries like China and India and some South American countries, the situation has actually turned ruthless. The geeky individual who knows all the maths in this world and beyond and nothing much else wouldn’t stand a chance against these multiple millions from the aforesaid hungry countries. Like it or not, we are in a global world where everyone competes for the same prize.

As my DS only trains for his chosen sport at Winchester and it's a sport the school is very successful at including reasonable success at the National Championship where GB team members predominate so it's pretty obvious that he for one is not sitting down day after day. I would be the first to admit that if he desired to become a GB team member then Win Coll is not the right school as they will not give him the necessary time out of school to achieve this, but he is more than capable on a good day of beating lower ranked members of the GB team and also easily beating boys from other schools who have a significantly more sporty reputation and that for him is sufficient.
Most of the boys I've met do some sort of sport at least three times a week, I know someone who coaches a top harriers team and he was telling me Win Coll is the school to best, other sports may not be as successful but it doesn't mean it's not being played by enthusiastic boys. But unusually non sporty boys can do no sport at all if they wish but pursue other interest music, art drama, or an intellectual interest.
As someone who loathed sport at school and did everything in my power to avoid it, it's not done my "brain strength and imagination" any harm I'm successfully bringing up a family and contributing economically, my ability to think laterally and outside of the box, has frequently been commented on.
We are all different and all thrive in different environments, the two schools are different which in this day and age where most schools are so homoginzed can only very a good thing. Different means exactly that not better but simply different.

Goodness me - there is so much to see, understand and work out when it comes to choosing a school (why did I not know that already ?).
I think it will be interesting to see what we like when we get to go on school visits.

ZFD, Thank you very much for your input. I think I understand what you mean by my DS being slightly under prepared for a public school by not coming from a prep. But should I assume that all prep school boys are likely to be very agressive and are likely to corner boys who do not come from such a background. DS is in a coed independent school by the way. He is generally good mannered but quite competitive like any other boy his age.

peteneras, Thanks for your input. I was quite impressed by the welcoming nature of Eton and Winchester's bursarial message where they say things like 'we warmly welcome applications for bursaries'. I do wish your matching for my son comes true .

IndridCold, I imagine anywhere in Cornwall is definitely further away from Eton than from us. That assures me that it is doable given the drive if DS can get in to either Eton or Winchester. The Scottish Leave thing is great too.

Eton2017, I am really intrigued by your input regarding breaking the stereotypes. This probably goes to show that every child is so different.

HG, I am in awe of your knowledge and experience!

Thank you all very much - I am sincerely grateful for the input and advice. The amount of typing and thought that has come from you all so far is half of a Saturday's effort - what can I say but that you are all great .

"Competitive" is probably good.

Don't think you need fear any abnormal levels of aggression, no. But it's such a lot to take in all at once. I've tried not to base my comments on my own thousand year old experience but more on what I'm seeing and talking about with boys going from day school to prep and into public schools at the moment. They're usually very self aware - and very clear that boarding will not suit a "mummy's boy" or anyone who can't take joshing or isn't willing to throw themselves into stuff with alacrity. And they have to learn to be well organised. And take responsibility for their own work. (So I think it's easier to practise these skills at a boarding prep. But I realise it's a rather niche area of education.)

If you can teach him the necessary skills at home he should be fine.

But - of course - he may turn out to be very different to the boy you're planning for!

Welsh beware open days/guided tours we left Win Coll's open day (many years ago) completely underwhelmed and I came away from Eton's afternoon tour absolutely convinced it wasn't for me. Friends took their DS3 to one of Eton's afternoon tours they were also completely underwhelmed but it was fine for them as they already had 2 boys there so knew what it really was all about. They said they wouldn't have continued with the application process if the afternoon guided tour had been all they has to go on.

Don't know if the following helps.

We have a Ds who would have been in the same year as HG's at WinColl. I wanted him to go there because although not College level ( the scholars' house) he is bright, in my view the liberal education there Is second to none, and I thought the peer challenge would be good for him.

After a grim 2 years in the local primary he transferred to a small happy but academically poor private school, knowingly. ( he was desperately life threateningly ill). He then went in year 7 to a local private school where the liberal education is not so good but the maths, his fave subject, is outstanding with more boys doing further maths than anywhere else in England.

We gave him a little extra tutoring in the term before the WinColl entrance exam so he would be familiar with the exam format. He was never going to do the Latin . But they accepted that, ditto the French, and that he is dyslexic. He got a place, but in the event decided not to take it up. I still regret it on one level, but we were not going to force him to board and this private school has turned out fine.

So

--be aware that some schools have their own entrance exams, not just CE,

--be prepared to put some effort in because your private school won't, ours didn't, why should they?

--And choose the right school for your son. Ds gave the head a hard time over WinColl football rules, and a hard time on politics, so I think would have suited the place.

And although yes academics are v v important, actually, most of Ds's cousins are there and have done heaps in the way of music or drama or debate or whatever.

I would also say, if it, whichever it is, is clearly the right school for your Ds, then go for it. But if there Is no clear blue water between it and your local one, do not kill yourselves financially. It's simply not worth the stress. Things can change v fast in rhe employment world and it's better not to have that level of stress.

Also remember that eg school trips cost. If the school has a huge endowment they may contribute. But if not, they won't be able to.

Hth

Ps, I was also massively underwhelmed by WinColl's approaches to parents! Fortunately I knew the school and young men who were there at the time, not just previous generations. Had I not, I would have been put off no end. Mumsnet is a far better guide!

But don't, really don't, consider it if there is a chance your Ds will struggle academically. It doesn't sound as though he will. But it really didn't suit one of Ds's cousins, though perfectly intelligent.

ancient I'm just curious to know how many do further math and why is it so popular?

OP I'm not sure where Peteneras gets the impression that Winchester boys spend all their time working. The main difference with Eton is the importance placed on off-curricular learning called Div and that they get an essay to write for this on Saturday evenings. Otherwise the balance between time spent doing lessons, homework and other activities is very similar.
It does value the love of learning first, then probably music and after art, drama and sport coming very closely behind. The more normal boys seem to appreciate the talents of the boys who are n't cool and a little bit different.

Hg, no idea. Always has been, seems to recruit for it. Has a history of taking poor boys and perhaps has found that they are better at maths, not needing a cultural hinterland? Dunno.

I would have been happy with the Pre U maths and specialism in it. The div equivalent at this private school exists but is dependent on the form master too much, in my view, and Ds got an AS one who fed them too much of his special interests.

And being a day school, he has not been submerged in the liberal side as I being a humanities person would have liked. And in his sets they are tolerant of the nonconformists. That's what I didn't like about s couple of other schools, that either you had to conform or if not you had to non conform in a couple of specific ways, sort of hippyish. Whereas at this school, certainly in his sets, you are respected for what you can do, be that rugger,music, drama, ping pong, Russian ,chess, cricket, etc. Ie you can be yourself and discover what you are good at. I felt the same about WinColl. Didn't look at Eton, I'm afraid, but assume the same there.

Goodness me, there's so much to know.
If DS does get a conditional offer at one of these schools, what subjects is he likely to have to sit in CE or Winchester entrance.
Given that he is not going to have done Latin, is he likely to get exemption for it.
I imagine Maths, English and Science will be basic. Would they also need to do subjects like History, Geography etc.
How does the Winchester Entrance compare to CE in syllabus and difficulty level?
I know it is a rather early and speculative question but how do boys prepare for KS or Winchester Election? Is prep the only way or can it be done with tutoring?
What are the general levels for boys going in with Music Scholarships?
As before, very grateful for all responses .

OP you'd obviously have to check with the schools but for the Win Coll entrance exam my DS2 sat math, English, geog, history, French including an oral. Latin, and science this covers all three sciences. The general consensus is that it's harder than CE, but there is no pass mark it's graded A-D. Parts of the math paper were easily higher level GCSE, the French requires the basic of grammar to be well established and a boy needs to be able to write and speak using the past, present and future tenses imperfect and perfect. In the oral unlike for CE you cannot prepare your answers in advance. The standard according to a French teacher in the state sector who looked at some past papers is quite a lot higher than most children in yr 8 would routinely be at. For history unlike CE you don't choose a particular period to answer questions on the questions are general for example; Good men don't necessarily make great leaders discuss using examples from history. How has art enhanced our understanding of historical events? DS1 sat the double science GCSE at higher level and I thought the questions were broadly similar. Copies of past CE papers are readily available as are revision guides etc, for Eton it will be level three and Win Coll will happily send past papers to you and your school.
Most boys being prepared succesfully for the KS or the Election are not only at prep schools they are at a handful of prep schools with a proven track record of success e.g. <a class="break-all" href="//Osummerfields.fluencycms.co.uk/Scholarships-Awarded" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Summer Field of course nothing is impossible and children will sometimes be successful from preps with no track record of success and who may or may not have been tutored outside of school and even those who've been home educated occasionally are successful.

I'm not overly knowledgable about music scholarships but I was once talking to a boy at Win Coll with a music scholarship he told me you had to be at the very least grade 8 in one instrument and I think grade 6 in another to get a music scholarship and probably higher unless it was an unusual instrument.
Frankly if you at a 3-18 through school you're going to struggle to prepare your DS for either CE or the Win Coll entrance exam let alone the KS or the Election. For prep schools it is their raison d'être, it is was what they are charging parents often considerable sums for, they know the system inside out and back to front, the clue is in the name, and certainly for scholarship level however bright your DS is I would have thought your chances of success at a "through school" are exceedingly low.

This list might be of some assistance OP. It shows the schools that were particularly successful last year.

An additional point regarding scholarship attempts is succinctly put here:

A boy’s present headmaster should be the key adviser on whether an attempt at the scholarship is appropriate as a means of entry in preference to Common Entrance on the basis of his abilities and all-round activities. (From the E website.)

Every parent thinks their child is brilliant. They may well be right - but the staff at a prep will have a far better idea of where a child stands in relation to his or her peers. And the child in the classroom will be able to judge his strengths and weaknesses in comparison to classmates preparing for the same exam.

Obviously where a child is at a state school that follows an entirely different syllabus and timetable it is right that they should take a different route to public school entrance. But where parents can send their child to a dedicated prep it might seem a little perverse not to do so ...

For both Eton and Winchester there is no financial gain in winning a scholarship bursaries I believe are offered equally to both scholars and non scholars. In both schools the scholars live together in their own boarding house. We know boys who declined the scholarship place at Win Coll and took an exhibition instead as they didn't want to live in College.
In your case where you are at a school that doesn't even prepare it's pupils for CE let alone the KS/Election a pragmatist would say focus initially on getting a place and then on passing the standard entry exam. There's enough stress in life without adding unnecessary agro to it.

You can see the KS papers on the Eton website. Link here if you need it. I have always been led to believe that success is impossible without extra tutoring, and if, as your OP seems to imply, you are seeing this as a way of getting around your CE problem then I'm afraid that this might be a bit of a dream, unless your DS is an absolute genius - which he may well be. I don't want to assume that he isn't .

The standard amongst the MSs is staggeringly high. I'm going to do a peteneras and post a link to some of the music competitions. The advanced sections will give you an idea of the standard required for the scholars. They also tend to eat, drink and breathe music, and the extra pressure on their time for rehearsals and practice is something not to be taken lightly.

m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLx3eRLwaVU_g0WhDDWz9VRr3JG2znIOyp