Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

Are you sure you're 1 hour 40 from Abingdon I would have thought that was exceedingly optimistic!
Think about if you are 1 hour 40 that's 2 hours and 20 minimum, but it won't be that it will be 2 hours 40 because I can tell you your DS will never be standing there ready to jump in the car. Off the top of my head I can't remember if there's Saturday school but if there is you probably won't be picking him up on Saturday till lunch time at best, late afternoon after a match is more realistic. Then you drive home, are you planning to drive back on Sunday evening or first thing in Monday (if you're allowed too)? Do you know Oxford do you know how crap the traffic around Oxford is in the morning? Do you want to spend nearly 6 hours of every weekend in a car for the next five years? Maybe you list driving as you main hobby in which case great but as I said earlier for two years we struggled with the driving and it made all of us miserable, my DH and I were constantly bickering about who's was going to pick my DS up or drop him off. I had to arrange my work around every pick up drop off. Then there were parent teacher consultations my DH never went because they were always in the week day, or a carol concert adding 3 hours onto our round trip. Also as most boys are day at Abingdon his friends are likely to be in the Oxford area, how will he see them during holidays? Most of DS's friends live in London so all I have to do in take him to our nearest main line station and bung him on the train you won't be able to do this if they live in a small Oxfordshire village. It's a good school but it's not that great, it's not up there with Eton win Coll et al so IMO wouldn't be worth the hassle.

Point take HG. I cannot beat your experience . No weekly boarding then.

Options seem to be getting smaller, which is good.

Fair enough if you want to buy in to Eton/Winchester brand name, I absolutely can't see what an admittedly fab school like Abingdon would give on top of the already great education your ds is receiving.

You need more than £ to succeed at those schools

I'm not trying to be unkind OP just realistic about driving around for a school run every weekend. We seriously considered a similar option apart from the fact that DS could come home on the train in his own on Friday. Every so often when visiting my in laws (wince smiley) we drive past the school we where thinking about on a Sunday afternoon, every time my DH says thank God we didn't send him there the driving every weekend would have been awful. It's just not how you want to spend every weekend.

areyoutheregoditsmemargaret, As I said earlier, brand is probably a small factor but not the most important. I see what you say about Abingdon. DS's current school is great academically and musically but there are shortcomings when it comes to sport facilities. DS is not a champion in any sport but he does like sport very much. The idea that he gets to play sport every evening within the school in Eton or Winchester is something I really like.

noddyholder, Completely unsure what you mean - I said right at the beginning that we cannot send DS to any of these schools unless we get bursary.

HG, You are not unkind at all, quite the contrary . A lot of my ideas about what might work and what might not have been formed through this two day discussion and the fantastic advice I have got of which you have probably given the most. So if you think I am being crazy, please say so without hesitation [Big grin].

OP have you considered Atlantic College? Not your typical public school, but I've always thought of it as the Eton for free thinkers and people who go on to have interesting lives. (I'm thinking of alumni I know.) It's in Llantwit Major which is a bit more doable.

Atlantic College is a 6th form college the OP's DS is in yr 3 so it. Might be a bit premature to consider it!

You can't exactly plan for Atlantic College anyway - you are lucky to get in.

OP I suspect you've read too many Mallory Tower books! I'm afraid to tell you the boys at Win Coll do not get to play sport every evening within the school". Every evening the boys do prep from 7 ish to 9ish they then have a house meeting afterwards. They can miss one night of prep once a week and go to a play/concert lecture etc but I don't think any sport is offered in the evenings. The boys do have three afternoons a week when they have no lessons and can do sport amongst other things and also a ?2 hour gap on the other afternoons when they can do an extra curricular activity some of which will be sporty. Each house has "yard" where they can play football with their friends and there's table tennis tables and basket ball rings, some house have small gyms and squash courts in the basement but do not be labouring under the impression it's sport every evening. The two hours prep in the evening is pretty standard at most boarding schools (I believe not at Eton but could be wrong).
The bottom line is that however sporty a school is pupils will still be expected to devote a couple of hours a every day to prep.

Yes, you're right not until 6th form and possibly even harder to get into than Eton. But the people I know who went are really lovely and interesting! I was also trying to think of good options that are a bit more workable geographically. Marlborough, perhaps?

I think you'll find that Marlborough have few bursaries only for those who get scholarships, lots of very smart parents as well.

What about, Clifton College or Shrewsbury.

Yes, Atlantic College is not an option yet .

happygardening, Thank you for that - I was under the impression that sport was an everyday thing in both E and W. I probably did not communicate it very well but I didn't mean to say that he has to play sport absolutely everyday. Ofcourse unless DS turns out to be super sportsperson, academics will be our top priority whichever school he goes to (provided he is inclined that way). But outside of the school day and prep time (really like the idea of the Div at Winchester by the way), it will be nice for him to have access to a range of sports, musical and other experiences that he can try and engage in. His current school is brilliant but cannot give him the same breadth of opportunities that a public school like Eton or Winchester can. We can only taxi him to so many classes/ training sessions and matches to say and he will be limited to those. DS is an inquisitive boy who will give things a go, so I would like it if he got the opportunity to try more things even if he didn't become a master of any of them. I was truly blown away by the list of sports that Eton or Winchester provide and the list of societies too. But as I said, this is all part of the reason for the aspiration. The package is definitely appealing provided DS makes it and we get a bursary.

BertieBrabinger, I will definitely do some reading on Marlborough. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

yotty, Shrewsbury is further from us (slow roads) than most of the public schools, west of London. Will have a read up on Clifton College. Thank you.

Completely out of context, do the public schools generally allow boys to take their bikes with them. DS loves riding his bike and it would be a shame if he had to give it up if he went.

Boys at Win Coll can have bikes but not cycle to lessons. I think k this is pretty standard.

I very much doubt Clifton College is any better than what you have now.

Out of interest happygardening apart from the main 3 and St Paul's and Westminster, which schools do you rate?
I have my own opinions based on people I grew up with, but it's not objective because a) it's purely anecdotal and b) based on the completely unreliable memory of my youth. (Now sadly distant.) You sound very clued up about current standings. Any of the well known ones you'd avoid like the plague?

Great that bikes are allowed.

I feel the same about Clifton too purely based on reading. At the moment I think our aspirations will centre around Eton and Winchester (possibly Harrow). I think we have to keep our expectations realistic as only a small number of applicants actually make it to any of these. I very much envy (positively) and congratulate those of you who have worked hard in different ways and made it happen for your children .

What a question? I "no nothing" about girls schools so have to leave them out. I listen to friends who have DC's and lots of different schools, I avoid passing comment on their views although I may ask a few pertinent questions to make sure I've not misunderstood what they are saying. I work with children so I come into contact with lots of children from different schools and know quite a few working in them.
The ones I rate may not be the ones others rate, I personally loath ridiculous uniform and meaningless ritual, I'd rather send my DC's to the local comp frankly, I'm slack liberal by nature so I like a school with liberal ethos, I hate "brands" and I particularly loath being sold at, I don't care about loos, bathrooms, food or dorms. I'm looking for a broad liberal education not booking a room in a hotel. I'm also not interested in swimming pools, manicured grounds or Medieval manuscripts, nice as they are they wouldn't sway my view of a school and I also don't care notable alumni I wouldn't wish celebrity on my worst enemy. I'm also not bothered if the head doesn't know every pupil I don't actually see that as his job, I'm more interested in the attitude towards the pupils HM's tutors etc.
So where does that leave us?
I've always heard from lots of friends positive things about Kings Canterbury, a couple of friends talk highly of Bradfield, I like St Edwards, I don't think anyone can deny Radley is a good school but it's definitely not for me! I personally don't like Harrow but that because it epitomises everything I loath and most people know Im no Eton fan but again it epitomises everything I can't stand. Both for the right children/families both are of course excellent schools. Marlborough is not liberal and again not for me but I can't deny that it's a good school for the right family. I looked at Stowe for DS1 and I personally didn't like the head master, and I thought I'd like Bedales the staff were very nice and the pupils very happy but from talking very carefully to the pupils about what they get up too I was unconvinced that it's actually does what it says it does, and a friends DS has a crap time there. Friends talk very highly of Ampleforth and it's pastoral care but you've got too at the very least tolerate the RC thing, and a girl I work with bucks the trend on here and raves about Milfield her four DC's have/are done very well there. I also hear positive things about Canford and Cranleigh. I also really liked Tonbridge the head came from SPS and has modelled a Tonbridge on it. I'm sure there's more but My brains gone blank.
The problem is that at every school you'll find disgruntled parents, partly because when you paying very large sums of money out you want it to be perfect, but it can't be. I also slightly worry when people endlessly write about how wonderful X is, and are unable to see that it's not right for all and it can't be that perfect. Maybe Im cynical but I just don't believe anywhere is that bloody perfect. The other thing is of course what was perfect for your DC in yr 9 may not be in yr 12 so it's always best to keep an open mind. Your opinion on a school also can change if the head leaves or your HM gets promoted and you don't like the next one.
People get disgruntled when things don't turn out how they thought it would. Amongst our friends the thorny issue of full boarding (or not) comes up time and time again; "I thought X would be full boarding but my DC is on his own from Saturday afternoon till Monday morning so I have to keep driving down there to get him". The other common reasons for parents becoming disgruntled is their DC can't do their absolute favourite extra curricular activity you thought, often erroneously, was offered and instead has to stand on a rugby pitch 3 days a week come hell or high water, or the particular subject that you thought was going to offered isn't. Issues also of course arise frequently about grades to stay on for the 6th form, whether they be 6 B's or 7 A*s. Parents are fickle they can quickly go from loving a place to hating it!
My advise Bertie if you're choosing a school if it matters ask! Talk to as many pupils and staff as possible preferably over as many visits as you can, go to concerts plays etc watch the staff and the pupils, avoid open days if you can, don't be swayed by other parents and if you actually want full boarding choose a school where the vast majority have to full board no weekly/flexi boarding and there are only a small number of day children. If you want your DC to do Sanskrit IGCSE do check they offer it before paying a deposit.
For many years I owned horses and kept them on a selection of livery yards some were astronomically expensive some were as cheap as chips, an experience I wouldn't wish to repeat, but I learnt three lessons: 1. most people will tell you what they think you want to hear, 2. usually you will not get any significant variation on a theme; they are not going to change their working practices to suit you regardless of how much you pay, 3. if it's not there when you arrive it's not going to be there when you leave. After twenty years of livery yards and a job in the public sector I'm disillusioned and jaded, these principles I went on to apply this to schools it works very well for me!

WelshParent I'm pleased to hear that you are still aspiring towards the 'top' schools, even though it can be an arduous process to get there sometimes. One certain thing is that if you give up now you definitely won't succeed!

I would recommend that your next step should be to ring their relative admissions offices to make further enquiries. I only have experience of Eton, and I have always found them very approachable and helpful. They will be able to give you their suggestions regarding your CE conundrum, and can also give you full details of how their bursary system works. They have changed their system so as not to exclude the 'middle' families, who are hardly poverty stricken, but can still not afford full fees. It might still be a stretch, but you won't be disqualified from applying because you have too much in the way of assets.

HG, I totally agreed with your thinking. Some of the schools you mentioned were also in our radar when choosing the school for my DC. We moved overseas again when DC was in Year 5, he was in a good Int'l Sch, but there were something missing. We believe he is very able. He was not challenged, everything was too easy for him, and we started looking for options for him. I believe getting into Wincoll certainly made a significant different in his achievements, in term of academic, music, sports plus all the after school activities. And the boarding envirnoment certainly helped him to grow up and be very independent.
Don't get me wrong, I also believe he will also do well if he stay with us. But I think the overall package is what we are looking for.
DD went boarding in UK when she was 12, we were in Singapore then. It was the toughest decision I ever made sending her far away, but was the best. She is now a confident capable young woman, in her final year in Medicine.
I think if you believe your child has the academic prowess, you will look for the school with the best fit.

Welshparent, you are right to check out now. For many schools, not WinColl, year three is when they expect you to start asking questions. Please check with the schools you are considering when you need to put Ds's name down. This is not the same as getting a place. But you must not miss the boat unless your Ds is truly exceptional.

The other thing is that I would endorse HG's statement on sport. Our poor children have huge amounts in their lives. V few secondary schools do sport every afternoon as an organised feature. At Ds's day school it is part of the curriculum still for them, but actually he takes time out if the day eg lunchtime to go to the gym/ play football, or gets in early. There is a heck of a lot of academic work, as well as other stuff ( he runs four societies). It's a matter of choices after about year 9.

happygardening, Wow! Your knowledge continues to wow me and so does your helpfulness .

IndridCold, Trying to keep my focus and not lose direction. Will start making those calls soon. We are not very asset rich but will be more than happy to compromise on lifestyle choices as much as needed for DS.

Xpatmama88, Just like you, the overall package is what interests me.

ancientbuchanan, I will start the enquiries. I think Eton wants registrations before the boy turns 10y6m. I think Winchester say something similar as well. Completely understand the sport issue. DS's school has already turned up the heat quite a lot on the academic front. Evenings are very busy to say the least but it is a pleasure to see DS develop.

Thank you all for your encouragement .

How easy is it for you to get on the M5? Because the Somerset and Devon schools are ok.

One friend has a non RC son at Downside, who is actually a day boy, despite it being a boarding school, and leaves at 9 each night. They think it is fab, great opportunities, teaching etc. Great boarding too. Prob doesn't have huge endowment though.