Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

If your DS achieved a music scholarship he would still be required to sit either CE or the Win Coll entrance exam, again there is no huge financial reward apart from free music lessons.

I see the point of pragmatism completely - all of yours' advice without chocolate coating anything is really appreciated.

I will remove any aspirations of the scholarships from my mind and focus on preparing DS academically as well as possible so that he stands a good chance in CE should he get a conditional offer. Since he is not in a prep, would it be a good idea for us to aim for him to move a class ahead in academics gradually? He is already well ahead in most subjects compared to the state school syllabus. His current school is very good at tailoring the level for each child based on ability and development.

His current school is small but very good a.cademically. They have a very small class in Sixth Form but produce very good results (the best in Wales infact). They regularly send boys and girls to Oxbridge and the best of the Russell Group. Without going into names, percentagewise they probably beat several of the public schools in England.
Our primary aim in thinking of a place like Eton or Winchester is purely for the innumerable opportunities DS will get to develop himself coupled with excellent academics. We don't want to send him away to a boarding school just for the sake of it. It needs to be one of the really top ones for us to be worth it's while (if he makes it ofcourse). I think Harrow, Westminster and St Paul's are out for reasons I have mentioned earlier in the thread. What other schools are worth considering - Radley, Abingdon are similar sort of distance from us as Eton or Winchester. I would appreciate views on these and some others like Charterhouse.

Again, all help very much appreciated.

WelshParent have you considered Oundle or Uppingham? Oundle in particular is well known for it's excellent academic record and has fabulous facilities - new Science department, huge music school and impressive modern languages school. Your DS would not have to sit CE but can sit entrance exams that he can prepare for here is the link from their website -www.oundleschool.org.uk/admissions/examinations/nce.php
This should give you an idea of what level to prepare for for most of the schools. They do offer bursaries and scholarships as do Uppingham, a friends child has just got a MS and he is at a day school.

You may be going down the route of overthinking OP.

Your current school sounds brilliant. Two reasons why I can see no point in moving a year ahead; it won't add any benefit for a pre-test, if that's what you're considering, and secondly I can never see how it works for the child ...

Beyond ensuring that he enjoys learning, in and out of the classroom, it doesn't seem to me that you need do anything unusual this year. No doubt according to their individual timetables you will endeavour to register and visit schools over the next couple of years - you'll soon see where you and he feel most at home.

There should be no question of "standing a good chance at CE". It's my understanding that schools would not offer a conditional place to any child unless they are confident that he will pass CE.

One other thing - having stood vaguely in your shoes a while ago I should warn you that a happy 7/8 year old may well have outgrown his lovely, small school, by the time he's coming up to 10. Particularly if he's both clever and ambitious. That is when you'll know he needs wider horizons ...

Coming back to this, on the academic side, we didn't ( I.didn't) think Ds bright enough to go for election, and his headteacher didn't have a clue, they hadn't even spotted he was dyslexic. But the WinColl head master thought he should put in for it, ditto his putative housemaster. They were looking past his teaching . Interesting.

Yes, on the music side, one of Ds's mates got a scholarship to Eton. He had the performer's cert/diploma in his main instrument, G 8 in one subsidiary and G 5 in two others, I think.

Charterhouse is basically weekly boarding especially in the early years so completely unsuitable for your location.
Radley has this ridiculously early registration thing although you can sometimes get in off the "Wardens List" it's very traditional man up type education, parents have chosen boarding and Radley at a very early age so believe 100% in their choice and know what boarding offers. I personally wouldn't choose it if you looking for a "liberal" education.
Abingdon only has a small number of boarders 100+ I suspect most will be 6th formers, it's a big school! I was there recently everything is perfect, the grounds, the pupils were buffed and polished, the food wholesome, the reception staff sat in a tidy office in suits etc, it very much reminded me of Eton without the boarding, it's very very much a brand. The current head has continued the work of the old head, he turned it into an safe choice for middle class parents who want good results combined with excellent sporting opportunities. It's an academic straight down the middle type school you're not gong to get any surprises there (does that make sense) and she has effectly built on this and marketed the "brand". Again I personally can't stand that kind of thing but many many on here think it's fantastic. It's not really aimed at those who want something different, slightly off the wall, a bit unconventional.
Can't remember why Harrow was out apart from the fact that perhaps you like any other sane person think that the wearing and doffing of boaters all the year round is completely ridiculous.
Westminster has no bursaries for boarders, but it does with out a doubt provide wonderful liberal education.
St. Paul's also has hardly any full boarders nearly all will be 6th formers. But it does have a generous bursary policy and IMO offers a fantastic liberal truly 21st century education.
Are you keen on the concept of boarding? IMO for the right child it's a positve life enhancing experience, or just wish to get your DS into one of the big names for the opportunities that will exist? If it's the former then the other school to look at is you want financial help is Christ's Hospital. It of course has a broad intake (in terms of background) as it has lots on bursaries which many really like and is grammar school selective I understand, it's full boarding with lots of other opportunities. There is quite a lot of meaningless ritual and of course a completely ridiculous uniform which as you've probably guessed neither of which I can stand but lots like it.

If he has friends,.don't move him up. Honestly. It's awful socially.

Instead, expand or deepen his current interests.. there's a huge amount you can do via the internet as well as physically heading somewhere. And if you are thinking about him boarding, at some stage, then send him to eg cubs or something where he has to get on with his peers away from home. You just have to be able to cope with homesickness and what another MNr calls joshing. Own rooms ( eton and Wellington) are more civilised than dormitories, having your own study space ( WinColl) good, but it's pretty relentless.

I personally like dorms (which is fortunate), my DS will tell you friendships are made in dorms often with boys who on the surface of things you didn't think you had much in common with. I agree there's no privacy but there is comradeship in dorms, very strong bonds and loyalties are formed, which is important for boarders. Two friends have their DS'a at Eton and both mention that neither 3 years in have made good fiends and both are a little lonely ok this can happen in dorms as well but single rooms definitely contribute to this feeling I think. Boarding is also about learning to live play work sleep eat alongside different personalities, about learning that we are all different and we all do things differently and that we have to learn to adapt to this, as we will in the work place. This what I'm paying for as much as everything else. When you share a dorm with 5/6/7 others you quickly learn tolerance of those who do things differently to you because you have no choice. Rooms of two can be disastrous if you don't like the other person. I was amazed at a couple of friends with DC's at other boarding schools who were saying they've contacted their HM's stating they don't want their DC to share with X, you do to get this in dorms personalities are watered down when you share with a group of others.

DS2 has been in a dorm since yr 2 only now in yr12 is he in a room with one other, when I talked to him about it he doesn't ever wish for it to have been any different.

Boarding can be a huge relief for the only child of overly attentive parents OP.

I like dorms too. A room of one's own (at school) seems to me like going up to university 5 years early and something for which a 13 year old needs to be spectacularly well prepared in order to avoid loneliness and isolation. And of course it requires energetic, empathetic and noticing housemasters to ensure no-one spends five years sitting alone at their desk.

OP no harm in going for a couple of the pretests and then making your minds up later depending on the results and whether your DS is restless at his present school in year 7.

You will have much more idea of his talents and commitment to eg music by year 6.

As an aside if he is highly intelligent and has originality then I think you can be successful at the Election without being at one of the prep schools that have a good record for Election / KS. I think the Election is more open to selecting high even skewed natural ability without necessarily the boy having been accelerated to cover advanced material.
Music awards at W like E are definitely worth it (free lessons and opportunities of very advanced music making) for those who have both sufficient musicality and personal commitment to their music.

Having reread your post above I'm not sure why you are thinking of moving your DS if I'm being honest. You're not doing for the boarding, he's at a good school, you're going to be a considerable shlep away from the ones your interested in, your say your doing for the "innumerable opportunities and "coupled with academic excellence" but you also go onto to say that his current school are "very good academically" with "good results" including sending able pupils to Oxbridge and ten RG universities.
Can you provide for him the innumerable opportunities? Do you have the time? Or what about the availability where you currently live? Or the energy and want to put in the effort? Not only is our nearest club for DS2's chosen sport 25+ miles away and I have to drive him there, I also personally don't want to stand on the side of a pitch 2-3 times a week whist my DS trains in his chosen sport, or endlessly wheel him found to various competitions, because I can't stand the other parents, I'm happy to let others take the strain but plenty love being so involved and happily do this. We go into London to galleries theatre opera etc during holiday time but I don't have the time to go in on a regular basis.
You have to ask yourself if you can and want to provide things innumerable opportunities or if you want your DS to board and let the school to do this?

OP. As you are in S Wales why not consider Shrewsbury or Malvern? Both closer to you than schools in the South East of England, and both have excellent reputations. Shrewsbury I know offers scholarships which DO have a cash value.

Interesting suggestion made by Badger if his current school is on a par or better academically than Shrewsbury or Malvern neither of which are very selective then I guess you will literally be doing it for the "innumerable opportunities". If that's what you doing it for Id also start thinking about more convenient schools that Eton and Win Coll. Perhaps that will help you decide if this is what you want or if you can provide them yourself if he stays at his current school.
Life is never straight forward is it?

Two friends have their DS'a at Eton and both mention that neither 3 years in have made good fiends and both are a little lonely ok this can happen in dorms as well but single rooms definitely contribute to this feeling I think.

As Oscar Wilde most definitely did not say:

“To know one Eton parent whose DS is lonely because he has his own room and therefore has been unable to make any friends may be regarded as a misfortune; to know two looks like carelessness.”

I think your ds should stay where he is. You've said the school has a fantastic sixth form and you can't really afford boarding fees, plus travel will be a mighty hassle. The world is changing fast and, although Eton etc undoubtedly are great, there's also a lot of prejudice against alumni of such schools. It'll be a lot of hassle to prepare for CE. I completely understand you want the best for your ds, but many people who didn't go to Eton and Winchester are thriving. Keep him at home and aim (further down the line) for a top university.

The world is changing fast ...

Much too fast to keep a clever child in one school from 7 to 18 when there is so much more adventure to be had with a little effort.

Sorry to butt in, but up thread you said something that I have heard before ZeroFunDame about whether a kid would be eaten alive at Eton having not been to a boarding prep. I know someone who said exactly this of her younger DS who she didn't send to Eton, unlike her older DS who is there. I know the majority of the preps on that list you kindly posted are day preps, but I do worry about this. I enjoyed boarding but was a bit older, and I have absolutely no plans to send my DS before 13 after my DB (he boarded from 9) insisted he was too young at 9. (I agree with him.)
Did your DS go from a boarding prep?
OP I applaud your forward thinking, btw! Have you been to see any of these schools? It will help you get a feel for whether they're right for your DS. I think the crucial thing is to remember that you must fit the school to your child, not the other way round. Especially when you're parting with cold hard cash!

Lots of children effortlessly make the transition from day school to boarding at different ages. It just simply depends on the individual child. Some children take everything in their stride, boarding, new schools, exams, applying to university etc, other become very anxious when they move from one day school to the next in both sectors. As parents we need to think objectively about how our individual DC's are likely to respond to any changes/events that occur.
IME most children will settle into boarding if parents are positive and believe in what they are doing and children have been given the choice to go down that road or not, having had time to look and think about it. Having an excellent loving and open relationship with parents is also very important children who are very secure in the relationship between their parents and themselves (sadly many aren't) will also find the transition from day to boarding much easier.

Bertie I think the main advantage of boarding from say year 6 or 7 is that the DC becomes used to doing their homework as their own unaided work rather than having parents to chivvy them or be breathing down their necks. They also get use to fitting their homework into a fixed time slot and getting themselves to their activities.
Having said that I know of a fair number of boys at these full boarding schools who didn't board and settled in as fast as the boarders. Indeed the novelty of boarding for the first time might have actually helped in the first few weeks. Previous boarders are n't immune to homesickness.

Bertie I was hoping I had not put it quite like that - but I see that I did ... Hmmm, how to explain? I've known people go up to public school (never having heard of "prep" as a type of school) and make their way through the five years without incident but always feeling there's some hidden extra something that they simply cant grasp ... It looks ridiculous written down. Possibly it is that if you've been through prep you arrive at senior school knowing that everything on offer, all the amazing new things to do, are for you - and you rush to sign up for them, get stuck in, race back to the house talking with new pals. Whereas you might (if it's all a weird new experience) shrug your shoulders and hang back thinking "well they probably all know about it already and I won't be any good, etc, etc." So it takes a little longer to integrate.

In addition - there's no getting away from the fact that prep school match circuits mean that complete strangers can greet each other as old friends because they might once have shivered at opposite ends of a pitch on a particular day a few years ago.

So - it's not so much other pupils, deliberately, as the suddenness of the system, accidentally, that might chew a child up. But of course, lots of kids will thrive from the moment of arrival.

(Apologies for relentless length - this is all quite present for me atm so I have found myself thinking about it rather often.)

Zero that match circuit works the other way as well once they are in their senior schools. It affords the pleasure of sighting their old prep school friends even if it only results in a less than two word exchange .
I know what you mean though about previous boarders being perhaps more used to the idea of the school being their 'stomping ground' rather than an institution they are attending.

The OP's DS is already at an independent school Zero the way your writing you'd think he was at a tiny primary school in the back of the beyond.
He's only yr 3 I'm think I'm with summer sit the entrance exams at yr 6, see if he gets a place, see what financial help they'll get, ascertain what he wants to do, what sort of child he is becoming, what feels right for the family then decide.

Exactly summer. And it's a completely different experience again if - as at state school - you move up with a pack of your classmates. (Even if you don't get to see much of them.) It does breed that dreadful word - confidence.

And you're so right about learning to work without chivvying.

Absolutely agree HG that the OP need be in no hurry to take any action right now ...

Thank you all for giving your valuable time to respond again.

Pepperpot69, Thanks for suggesting Oundle and Uppingham. I think the distance is a factor that probably rules those two out. They are 3 ish hours from us.

ZFD, I see what you mean by letting him develop normally until the point of pre-test but probably up the game if he gets a conditional offer. That makes complete sense.

I completely agree with the folllowing

Much too fast to keep a clever child in one school from 7 to 18 when there is so much more adventure to be had with a little effort

HG, Discounting Harrow as I understand that bursaries are only for scholars. If DS does not get a scholarship, then we can't really afford to send him paying full fees - maybe that will change by the time DS is ready to apply. We discounted Westminster and SPS simply because of lack of bursaries for Westminster and both being day schools. Abingdon maybe an option as it is nearest and easy to get to for us. How does weekly boarding work. Is it a good idea? I know the commuting factor every weekend but I was calculating that in total we spend about 4-5 hours in school and activities runs. In comparison the 1hr 40 mins x 2 every week does not sound too bad.

Regarding our reasons for wanting to send DS to the likes of Eton or Winchester is that, no matter how good my DS' current school is, it cannot match the exposure and opportunities that one of those schools can provide. The boarding aspect will ofcourse help him prepare him for future life and be independent. He will also get to make friendships for a lifetime that will help him forever? Then there is the repuation factor even though this it is probably the smallest reason (please don't flame me for saying this but I suppose this is why Oxbridge are held in higher regard than one of the Russell Group Unis). I think it is a combination of these factors that makes us aspire for Eton or Winchester. I am not too worried about the distances to these two as they can be reached in under 2 hours on a Saturday or Sunday morning. Friday evening can be a different story though [Big Grin]!

I am not hugely worried by the boarding aspect - what proportion of the boys going into Eton or Winchester are likely to be have been boarders already - 50% do you reckon? I am taking encouragement from what you say about most children adapting well to boarding life with time.
I also believe (having experienced this myself and seen with some other friends) that often close friendships are formed very quickly at that age sometimes better than between two children who have known each other for long. At this point I am not too worried about dorm or individual room though my preference would be for a dorm setup.

BertieBrabinger, Many thanks for your kind words. Just trying to think of the best we can give to DS. We were both very lucky that our parents sacrificed a lot to give us the best they could. We like all of you want to do the same.

To all of you I am eternally grateful for this detailed discussion and for all of you having devoted so much time to advice and guide me.

I think we will let DS develop, progress and enjoy his next few years as normal and then judge how we progress.