Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

Not at all. It is however very useful to have someone to point out the ground reality though because a 'no' is very much possible and we better be ready for that.

I'm pretty sure a family with an income of 80k you will receive financial help. A take home pay of 52k unless you're mortgage free in which case you might not get a bursary does not enable you to stump up £3k month in month out.

My apologies for misunderstanding you Molio. I agree the point about offering to the most needy first. We'll give it a go and see when the time comes.

So really all I was saying was that a lot of parents there are scarily rich. But I agree that shouldn't deter. The 'top' unis are also full of DC of very rich parents and it doesn't seem to cause a massive divide. If I had wanted Eton for my sons that factor would have weighed very little and I'd have gone for it too.

According to the Win Coll website you can apply for an indication of how much financial support you'll get at any time I guess this means even before you register your DS.

HG only someone rather ridiculous would question your integrity.
It is actually quite sad that he wishes to think that the only reason somebody would contemplate criticising his DS's school is because of not managing to get in.
This thread is coming up with all sorts of twists and turns.

Welsh I think you are a being a bit optimistic that you would get a significant bursary at that gross salary of 80, 000 unless you have no savings, equity and unavoidable outgoings.

My understanding is that the upper limit for bursaries at Winchester is around 140k gross (assuming the family does not have substantial assets). This figure comes from a member of the governing body. The actual percentage offered depends on assets, outgoings and family situation, with a percentage above 20% unlikely to be offered to those earning over 100k gross.

BTW I don't think you would be offered quite as much as 50%.

Day schools costing 15k per year typically give no bursaries for gross incomes above 60k. With a gross income of 80k, you take home at least an extra 12k per year than a family on 60k. That means you would be considered able to afford (15+12) = 27k per year, by downsizing your house if necessary. I suspect 30-40% is as much as you could really hope for.

Welsh, my DS is an optimist. He always reckons everything will turn out OK -he'll just give it a go if it looks fun/interesting. Disasters become funny stories to be enjoyed in retrospect. His girlfriend thinks that this is somehow an "Etonian confidence" trait. Well, his Dad (who didn't go to Eton) has always been equally spontaneous . DS was like this well before he went to Eton. Eton, if anything, tried to focus his enthusiasms.

DS's friends from Eton vary hugely. They cover all points on the "sensible" spectrum.

And, for the avoidance of doubt, nothing would have been different (IMO) if DS had gone to our local (very good) comprehensive. He's his own man.

Molio, you have every right not to like my post, and indeed it may have come over as emotional although I was just trying to be supportive to those weighed down by tradition, and as I am sure you would agree, point out the child is more important than the school. ( though emotion has hardly been in short supply on this thread)

But I don't know what you think you were implying about New College and my assumptions or desires. I never mentioned it in that post. I made a joke about a rather unpleasant but successful mediaeval churchman. He did found an Oxbridge college, there used to be tied scholarships in my generation just as there were from Eton to Kings, but why do you think from my posts that I would think that any allocation of places to specific school would be a good idea ? Or that I would play the family card? Or that I would expect the family card to have any effect ? I find that unnecessary, unpleasant and illogical.

I would not in any case have expected Winchester to take Ds if they didn't think he could cope, family or not. They are not so stupid. Bad for child, bad for school. There used to be scholarships for Founder's Kin- much if the family has been downwardly socially mobile since the middle ages - but I don't even know that those exist any longer. But there was a tradition, so I felt able to joke about it. ( for those able to be amused by such things, in the Bad Old Days when it did matter, it was always said that the way you tested for proof of FK was to hit the child with the wooden trencher. If the trencher broke, not the head, he was FK, if not, not.).

WP, sorry if again I have wittered on. But you will see that there is a lot of divisiveness caused and it is worth getting a flavour of that before you sign up to that.
These schools look at the child. When it gets to HE, once again they look at the individual candidate. No-one should be under any illusion.

On the subject of money, yes it's different in day schools, but Ds's peers range from refugee children to those with bodyguards as their parents are oligarchs. Yes there was a phase when he wanted all the latest stuff to keep up, but seems to have got through mainly some time ago, as is on an allowance, and whilst would like to be seriously rich doesn't order his friendships that way.

I imagine it's just the same elsewhere. Certainly the same in some of the state schools near us, perhaps a question of degree, but still the same issue. As ever in London there are very rich people cheek by jowel with those with no money. It will depend on the child. And College and the KSs have always had v mixed backgrounds. Don't worry too much, is what I'd say. Because schools are so more aware of their charitable status these days and their obligations, you will find more help, more people being helped.

But still work out what it's worth to you and take out insurance. It's not worth misery or broken health.

happy gardening, Cauchy and summerends, Thank you for your inputs about the bursary issue. I will stay positive and see if we get a bursary if DS gets an offer...two big 'if's there!
grovel, Loved the reference to the various points of the sensible spectrum. Seriously though, what you say of your DS is very much what I aspire for my DS - the optimist 'give it a go' attitude in life. In a small way he is already a bit like that. Can I congratulate you for raising your DS in such a manner that has made you proud.
ancientbuchanan, I am not hugely worried about the divisiveness. I am sure all parents like us try to do their best for their DC. In 20 years time I think the important things for us will be how DS developed as a good person, has a good personality and has done reasonably well in life. The name of the school probably won't matter so much.
BTW, what is HE?

ancient, Yes will do. Stay calm and get DS to sit the pre tests. Next steps next. Thank you for your supportive words .

ancient someone else made a joke about New College and I merely said I didn't think it would work. You said nothing about it yourself, agreed, but please lighten up. No of course you'd have to be daft to attempt a 'family card' these days. FWIW some rather sour old bird on my husband's side gave Brasenose its door knocker and a tiny endowment, in exchange for a hanging a portrait of her and saying a shedload of prayers every day on her behalf. Not sure they got value for money so for all sorts of reasons it's not featured in any ps :)

WP a note of caution already issued by grovel, about the spectrum. grovel's DS sounds completely great but as she said herself, the optimism is most likely genetic. One of the boys I know was an exact contemporary of grovel's DS (unless the latter took a gap year) and about as different sounding on that front as could be.

Agreed, Molio, but the Winchester/New College bond is still quite close.

Statute V of the College (Winchester) provides that the Fellows of the College, in addition to the Warden shall be:

The Warden of New College Oxford (a)
One Fellow elected by the Warden and Fellows of New College Oxford (b)
One Fellow elected by the Council of the University of Oxford (c)
One Fellow elected by the Council of the Senate of the University of Cambridge (d)
One Fellow elected by the President and Council of the Royal Society (e)
One Fellow appointed by the Lord Chief Justice of England (f)

Up to eight Fellows elected by the Warden and Fellows (g), provided the total number (including the Warden) does not exceed fifteen.

To give that list flesh:

Warden: Charles Sinclair CBE, BA, FCA (2010) (g)
Sub-Warden: Robert Sutton, BA (2003) (g)
John Nightingale, MA, DPhil (2002) (c)
The Rt Hon Sir Andrew Longmore, PC, MA (2006) (f)
Robert Woods, CBE, MA (2007) (d)
Jean Ritchie, QC, LLM (2008) (g)
Professor Sir Curtis Price, KBE, AM, PhD (2009) (a)
Professor Christopher Sachrajda FRS PhD FInstP CPhys (2010) (e)
Peggy Frith, MD, FRCP, FRCOphth (2011) (b)
Major-General Jonathan Shaw, CB, CBE, MA (2012) (g)
Clarissa Farr, MA (2013) (g)
Andrew Joy, MA (2013) (g)
Nicholas Ferguson, CBE, BSc, MBA (2014) (g)

Even New College says there's a bond, there's no well kept secret. I don't think a long list is required to prove it! But then Winchester produces clever kids. Well, it takes in clever kids, educates them excellently. and sends them out admirably equipped to gain places at all the best unis. It's no surprise plenty will apply to New because of the historical links and plenty will get in because of their talents. It's the founder's kin thing that wouldn't work, which is very different to the mere fact of being a Wykehamist. But this is really out of proportion to your initial fairly flip comment about New and my small supplementary.

Molio, I only posted it because I thought it interesting. Sorry if it bored you.

It's ok grovel. I mean, lists that that aren't riveting tbh but don't worry about boring me I have a pretty low boredom threshold.

Actually it is quite interesting now I've gone back to re-read.

Entirely possible that I'm dead stupid but I'm having a problem with the maths. Can you explain?

Forget that, it's probably just olden days language translated.