Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

How about Monmouth School? Or Llandovery College? Or Christ College in Brecon?

"How about Monmouth School? Or Llandovery College? Or Christ College in Brecon?"
I think you're missing the point here flossy the OP already has her DS at an independent day school with the best exam results in Wales, she is aspiring to get her DS into one of the top big names with all the opportunities that attending a big name brings. Schools like Eton, Win Coll et al are just in a completely different league in comparison with Monmouth, Llandovery or Christ's College.

I understand that HG, I was just trying to think of a possible compromise for OP where her DS gets the added benefits that boarding school provides as well as being close enough to home. Or a fallback option if OP's DS doesn't get in to one of the top public schools. I can see merit in keeping all doors open and looking at different options.

Fossyfloo has a point. Eton and Winchester combine a rather bright cohort with a myriad (particularly Eton because of its size) of extracurricular opportunities and clubs.
However there are other less selective boarding schools that have excellent sport and clubs that OP seems keen on and do well academically by their bright pupils. If the OP is keen for her DS to have a change of scenery from his present school later on and board, then the strategy of just E or W might be limiting should both of those fail. It would be worth considering and visiting one other school with a pretest after year 6, the required opportunities and the appropriate bursary possibilities.
The OP also seems very optimistic about travel times from South Wales (even from Newport). One of my regrets is that being well over an hour away (in good traffic) means that I /we end up missing many of my DS's concerts, matches etc. It is a shame as their time at school doing these things passes very quickly.

I personally wouldn't channel my hard earned money into any school that happens to be around just to get the "benefits of boarding". If my DS hadn't got a place at Win Coll I would have seriously reconsidered my options. I might have moved closer to a city where better sporty opportunities, culture etc we're close by and that he could access on his own and sent him to an independent day school. Obviously I'm only speculating about what I would have done but I get the impression the OP feels as I do.
I do agree though about the traveling thing as many know, if you have a journey of over an hour, especially if your work full time, you are very unlikely to pop over to school on a regular basis to watch a sporting event/concert etc. Win Coll and Eton are a considerable shlep from where the OP lives. Also your not going to pop over for a quick "hello shall we go out for tea together?" If your DC becomes unhappy for whatever reason, however good the pastoral care is and IME Win Coll's is excellent, children often want to see their parents if they feel unsettled.

HG those of you who live in Home Counties or down south are very lucky if you can have the 1.5hr rule but for the rest of us we have to sacrifice the delights of seeing our DC regularly and the emotional strain is horrific. Please remember we can't all live so near fabulous schools and some us have to choose between the luxury of a quick 'hello shall we go out for tea together?' because the value of the education is greater.
If I stuck to the 1.5hr rule I wouldn't get out of the county or near any independent school at all. The reality is 3hrs to the train station and 5hrs on a train plus 30mins in a taxi, then we can go out for tea!
If you live further away and are looking at schools in the south it is likely that the OP has already considered the time spent travelling. I know you wouldn't wish to make the rest of us feel guilty that we can't be all things we would like to be to our DC but making the decision to put their education and opportunities first whilst dishing out bucket loads of love from afar is just the way it has to be for some of us. Please spare us a thought, it is hard enough as it is..(wipes away tear)

3 hours to the train Pepperpot?

My sympathies.

But yes, this particular school is a very, very different commitment to any old school as long as it's convenient.

Pepperpot As someone who boarded with family a plane ride away, I would also urge you not to feel guilty! You just get on with it, and as long as you are somewhere where there are lots of boarders left over the weekend (and exeats) you actually end up bonding quite a bit and make your own fun. I also spent a half term or two staying with friends instead and again, it all helped cement friendship. My mum tells me about boarding back in the sixties she would go whole terms without seeing her parents because of long distance, but she knew they were doing the right thing for her and really appreciated it. I think it's also great preparation for uni - I was used to being away from home for long stretches by then and didn't get homesick.

I'm with you happygardening on how while fees might be similar, there is a vast, vast difference between a very good public school and the kind that feels the need to put an advert in the back of Country Life. (I'm naming no names...) It's important to remember that, and to not waste money on a private school that simply isn't worth the dosh. Thanks for your opinions on schools, too. Food for thought.

So I guess WelshParent I'm saying don't rule out schools further away if you feel they will really suit your son and be worth the financial commitment.

Winchester parent here - I know the thread has moved on a bit but just found it and wanted to say -

" I cannot imagine for the life of me how a full-blooded teenage male of the modern era (never mind the Stone Age) be made to sit down day after day and presumably for the rest of his entire life, to just do academic work and nothing much else. It is simply not natural."

From DS's experience I just do not recognise this, nor that Wincoll is "just" academics. Yes the academic side is hugely important but DS does quite a lot of extra curricular stuff, during the week as well as weekends. Whilst it may be true (and I have no first hand experience of e.g Eton or Radley) that a boy who like Maths, maths and more maths might find Winchester a more sympathetic environment, the stereotype of it being stuffed to the gunnels with geeky otherworldly weirdos just isn't true IME. DS's circle of friends seem pretty competitive and robust to me. (Perhaps they are the anomaly ). Anyhow , doesn't matter to me but just wanted to say for balance that the view of Wincoll sometimes put across is not necessarily one I recognise and shouldn't put anyone off before they have visited and investigated the school.
I know I have probably overstated the stereotype for effect.

OP Practical advice

DS came from a day prep school and fitted in very quickly to boarding. I get no impression at all he ever thought there is a magic body of boarding knowledge he is missing out on. However, one boy, not a rule necessarily.

Also his school was not particularly used to preparing boys for the Winchester exam. (Pupils did go to other "big name" schools just not W. However, W was very helpful to his teachers when they contacted them about how they could help prepare him for the exam.

So, just posting, really, to say there may be a myriad reasons you don't choose to send your son to Winchester, but don't be put off by never having boarded or his current school not being well versed in send boys there.

Pepperpot69 - there may be more schools accessible (if not financially) in the SE, but as I'm sure happygardening was getting at - a lot of these are not full boarding. Even if they offer full boarding a lot of pupils disappear at weekends (well after sports/Saturday school). Which can make it a bit miserable for those left whose parents live too far away.
So if choosing a school you need to be careful of just how many pupils board full time.

There are basically only a small number of full boarding only or full boarding with a small % of day children. It's important to define full boarding, IMO it means staying in school 7 nights a week, only going home at weekends for exeats. ISI reports by the way have a different definition, I know plenty of schools that cheerfully admit to being weekly boarding only schools but are defined as "full boarding" in the ISI inspection reports. If schools offer weekly/flexi boarding then they naturally attract more local families and then significantly empty out over the weekends. Frankly amongst UK based parents want flexi weekly boarding so there is not a huge market for full boarding.
Of the top of my head full boarding schools or ones with a small proportion of day children are a Eton, Win Coll, Harrow, Radley, Kings Canterbury, Marlborough, St Edwards, Uppingham, Rugby (I think), somewhere "up North" that does a lot of Rugby, I can't remember what it's called, ?Oundle I'm not sure how many day children are there.
Apart from the very big names most boarding schools are struggling to fill their vacancies, and are therefore economical with the truth when it comes to actual full boarding numbers. We looked at a school for DS1, as did a friend on a separate visit, the HM I thought was looking rather slippery when it came to actual full boarding numbers, so after we applied the thumb screws he admitted that the vast majority went home every weekend. Friends on their visit really liked the school, much to my surprise as their significant distance from the school meant they needed full boarding. When I expressed surprise at the suitability of their choice they assured me that it was a full boarding school. Three years later they removed their DC why? You guessed it; their main complaint it was a flexi/weekly boarding school.
Remember what I said above like livery yards most people tell you what they think you want to hear.

If you lack my cynicism I can recommend 20 yrs in the public sector (probably 6 months will be sufficient now) and 15 years keeping horses in various livery yards. You'll soon be as jaded and cynical as I am.

Pepper and others my thoughts were nothing to do about guilt, just for those who do have options (that would exclude overseas or you in an isolated area or even Indrid in the extreme SouthWest) choosing a school further away (by South East commuting times rather than distance) means giving up the option of easily making those visits. I don't think my DS minds much TBH but as a parent I do. His school is still the right choice for him.

OP - have you visited any of the schools on your list? Have you discussed them with your DS' prep?

The reason I ask is that although things look marvellous on paper, they may not be the right thing/ have the right feel for you, in real life. I have a good friend who was dead cert on the big E, but upon visiting with her DS, she was completely underwhelmed and decided it was not for them. Other friends have been completely against WinCol as it was just too academic, but again - upon visiting, changed their minds and have it as their no1 choice.

Your DS' prep - though through to 18 - will have invaluable knowledge of how DS is in day to day life at school and if they have any experience at all with the big name schools, or more or less full boarding schools, they may be able to point you in the right direction as to what might suit your DS well and less well.

Getting the support from your current prep is really important as they will write your DS' reference and will have to help prep him for CE.

TinkerBell You may have missed the fact that the OP's son is not at a prep school ...

Ah - yes - sorry - I meant to write Independent school. Sorry!

I think his HM will still be asked for a report / reference and they will know him well in the school setting, so can advice?

They will certainly be responsible for writing a report, yes. But there's no reason why they would have any special knowledge of entirely different types of school that they have no reason to prepare children for.

OP is your current head familiar with any of the schools you're considering or is he just going to bone up on them in the Good School Guide?

It's true that visits to all the relevant schools will considerably clarify the OP's thoughts!

Umm just to throw a small spanner in: I have known boys withdrawn from both Eton and Winchester because their parents and them weren't happy afterall (I think both being/been HEd, and almost certainly have very bright futures ahead of them).

I also know that to be true for non H Ed boys at both Eton and Winchestee. As Hakluyt says on the other thread you can never absolutely predict depending on the mix of personalities and fit of the pastoral care for a particular boy who may change greatly during his teenager years.

I know of children withdrawn from virtually every big name school you can think of. At least two of DS2's prep school friends left their senior schools after two terms one went onto a school who'd turned him down at the pre test and is now very happy. I think this is normal, for some reason the particular school doesn't suit the child and/or the parents this doesn't make it a bad school. I always think if you're not happy and having given it a chance it's unlikely to be resolved move, there's nothing worse for the parent, child or school to have an unhappy child and and dissatisfied parents in the back ground.
If schools were perhaps a little more honest with parents and less slick marketing machines perhaps this wouldn't happen so much. Someone once commented on here that they attended the win Coll open day and were annoyed by the "this is us take it or leave it" attitude they wanted a bit more of the soft sell, a bit more of rolling out the red carpet, but I think it's the soft sell that can give parents a false impression and also makes it hard for them to decide between A and B.

Goodness me, a lot has happened since I last posted.

Just going through the things in order, happygardener is absolutely right that we wouldn't be looking at moving DS to another school (and more so into boarding) unless it was one of the top named ones (and ofcourse suitable for him). London way is not a problem as we tend to travel to London a lot anyway because of family and friends. A few more, when it could mean getting time or seeing DS do something would not be a problem for us. We are in a fortunate position as both us would do a total of 18 miles combined daily commute if there were no school runs involved (12 if we synchronise our work times and use one car which is easy when there are no school runs involved). So the thought of a 250 mile round trip, even once every week doesn't bother us much (doubt it will be that often though). We are also both fortunate in that we can work as flexibly as we like if we want to leave early and make an evening concert or need an afternoon off.

Pepperpot69, Wow, 3 hours to a station, 5 hours on a train and a half hour taxi ride! My distance from E or W is a daily commute in comparison. Well done to you and for your drive and courage to do it. I agree that the bigger picture of the benefit of a better education for a DC outweighs the parents' wish to attend every single event at school. Good on you!

Coming to the issue of boarding, I am not too worried based on DS' personality as of now. He generally gets along quickly with other kids wherever he goes and he is generally very adjusting. I firmly believe kids are kids wherever they are in the world.

We haven't visited any of the schools yet as most will not allow a visit so much in advance. I don't think we can do it any earlier than next year. Radley is probably the exception given that 'from birth' registration is allowed. We will make the visits as soon as possible.

We have not talked about our aspirations with DS's current school HM or teacher yet but to be honest I don't think they are that clued-up on the public school scene in England or CE for that matter. Given that S Wales has so few indies, they all have significant demand and hence waiting lists - so they don't really need to prepare the children for public school entry at 13. I also hesitate to start the discussion with them any earlier than absolutely needed given that it will involve DS leaving the school.

mummytime, I completely appreciate what you mean about boys leaving E or W. But isn't that uncertainty the case with anything new in life - new school, uni, job, house. I think most people make a decision to change something based on their best understanding, research and intuition. Fact that the decision can sometimes be wrong is very understandable. But out of say 1300 boys in E, how many leave every year. I would imagine, not even 5? So I think we will be willing to take that chance. Ofcourse it will be based on us visiting several of the schools, possibly multiple times, meeting boys and staff, housemasters and ofcourse these brilliant discussions on MN with all of you wonderful experienced people .

Many thanks to you all again.

Sorry meant to say happygardening. Apologies.

Interesting thread! Sorry for the minor hijack but is anyone able to offer an view about entry to somewhere like Eton from a progressive independent school? DS will go to a small Montessori primary, totally the right choice for us at this time. We have visited many prep schools and none felt right for us. No Latin ( DH did classics, we could perhaps cover it), good standard of French taught from yr R, maths standards high and the kids are remarkably articulate and confident. And we may well spend a couple of years seconded in Palo Alto at some point, where he would also attend one of the many Montessori elementary schools.

I like the idea of Eton as in many ways it's a progressive, non-traditional education, but provincial prep schools really sell themselves on being traditional. I am considering the local Quaker secondary in the 2 year gap. DH and his brothers went to Eton and he seems to think this plan is fine, but from reading this thread entry to schools has got much more competitive and prescribed since then.