Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

You can't be serious. You think someone who walks by, sees a crime being commited but does nothing, that person is also commiting a crime?

No, the law absolutely does not recognize this inaction. Think it through. Doing nothing about stopping a crime is not a crime.

Are you talking about being an accessory to crime? Thats completely different as is definitely not inaction. It's specifically action in assistance of crime or concealing a crime- ( while not committing the actual crime itself. )

But using this totally false argument, you would have those people who simply do nothing held responsible for a crime?

All the while insisting it is wrong to hold all Palestinians accountable for Hamas, ( which everyone on here agrees with ) you continue to see all Israelis as accountable for a crime the government may commit in the future?

Can you honestly not see the double standards?

So you suggest that Israelis should protest to stop Jewish hate and attacks elsewhere.

Do you not understand that isn't really their problem and you are now making Israelis culpable for antisemitism worldwide rather than the fact racist fuckwits live everywhere and countries should stamp out racism wherever and whenever it occurs.

At this stage I am wondering if there is anything you won't twist to make Israelis culpable in one for or another. Have you thought even for a second that you could actually be wrong in blaming the average person for the actions of their government.

@Neverstopwondering, So you suggest that Israelis should protest to stop Jewish hate and attacks elsewhere.

No. I suggest that Israelis should protest because their democratically elected government is implementing a cruel, immoral and legally defined crime against humanity in their name.

It's a policy leading up to an election.

In the upcoming election everyone who voted for BG's party could be morally questionable.

Everyone else who didn't vote for his party cannot.

You'll have no way of telling who voted for who.

So you'd be holding a whole population responsible for the sins of a few.

Something anyone with 2 braincells to rub together accepts unconditionally.

And if you need an example, you do not believe all Palestinians should be held responsible for Hamas's crimes. Most of us agree, I haven't read every comment.

So then you apply the same standards to Israelis and come back to what we all keep telling you.

No. Israelis as a whole could not be held responsible if this plan goes ahead.

I really don't see what else needs to be said or why this dumpster fire of a thread is still going on. And I'm bloody helping! Argh.

It's ok to admit you were wrong.

We know the Israeli public is capable of massive, country stopping protests when they disagree with state policy. They did it in 2005 over the Gaza pull out. If they remain passive now during an illegal population transfer of millions, that silence is a choice.

Can you honestly not see the double standards?

Where is my double standard?

I didn't say it was your double standard. The double standard is that the population brought the country to a standstill with protests when nine thousand Israelis were forced out of Gaza but when the government implements a plan to ethnically cleanse millions from the country in a total violation of the Geneva conventions and a recognized crime against humanity, you don't seem to think they need to do anything.

Ok then, can you see your double standard?

Its this-

Israelis should be held responsible for their governments decisions.

Palestinians should not be held responsible for their governments decisions.

Can you see it?

I don't see any appropriate or fair mechanism to hold the general public to account for the actions of the state. However, on the issue of what the general public supports, I have seen some very disturbing vox pops where it is clear that the views of some Israelis about Palestinians are deeply disturbing and dehumanising. I do not know how many this applies to though. Elections may help tell us. Willingness to serve in the IDF instead of object conscientiously is another indicator. Not protesting is another indicator. There are many Israelis protesting against the actions of their State, they are very brave. History will obviously be on their side.

Absolutely not. Two very different situations.

Even though Hamas were initially voted in, you could hardly call them a democracy now. Dissent like protesting would not be tolerated amongst the civilian population. Additionally, the majority of the civilian population would not have known of the attack before hand. Hamas know that Israel has eyes and ears everywhere in Gaza. They would hardly broadcast their intention to launch a surprise attack.

Israel, on the other hand, is a democracy and the population are very active when it comes to protesting the government when they implement a policy they don't like. On top of that, the horrific Disengagement 710 is not simply a rumour, it is a plan that has been openly declared to the whole world and is already underway.

Finally it is not about being responsible for the governments decision. If that's what you think the argument is, you've missed the whole point. It is about the electorate in a democracy not just having the right but a duty to protest a government policy which is not simply immoral but internationally recognized as illegal, in their name. Passive silence in the face of a state crime is a choice and isn't neutrality, it functions as authorization and tacit consent.

So are you changing your premise to they should all be held 'culpable' unless they head out onto the streets to protest?

Its ridiculous. Do you hold my mate Patrick in NYC culpable for Trump bombing Iran? He definitely voted for Kamala but had to work on the day of the protest... is he morally disgusting?

Further, I literally gave you the stat of 72% of Palestinians believing October 7 was the correct decision. After it had happened. Yet we still know we can't hold those people culpable for October 7. They didn't do it. You yourself know they can't be held responsible.

But Israelis can. For something they haven't even done.

You're literally trying to legitimize the way you feel about people who live in Israel.

I'm amazed you can't see it. But I guess it would require a whole new internal idea of self to be integrated... I know its hard. But you can do it if you want.

Wow I missed that.

😬😬😬😬

Here we go round the washing machine again. I don't know if you are not reading the previous posts or possibly I'm not explaining the concept properly. The idea of civic accountability within a functioning democracy is a well established sociopolitical concept in political theory, it has nothing to do with judging individuals like your friend Patrick, nor is it about imposing labels on ordinary citizens, as I said. It is about the moral weight an electorate carries in a democratic society. I am not going to explain the philosophy again as it is already laid out above. Conflating standard political theory with personal prejudice or double standards is a wilful misrepresentation of my point.

Word salad.

Here's a thought straight from my brain without using AI.

If multiple people said to me the things I was saying made me sound like a racist I'd try to understand why then adjust how I think and talk so as not to have people assume I'm a racist when I'm not.

I'd also examine myself for any biases I might be carrying as a result of living in a society where racism is a problem.

Have a nice evening!!

I find the atrocities Palestinians actually committed on Israelis deeply disturbing and dehumanising, let alone their views. Website showing graphic evidence below.

WARNING a strong stomach and a few days in bed trembling in horror may be needed.

Hamas Massacre | October 7th Proof

I was accused of being melodramatic when I said that it was unreasonable to expect survivors and families of those lost in October 7th to want to protest in support of Palestinians.

Would the OP find the survivor of male gang rape at the Nova Festival morally culpable for not going out and protesting on behalf of Palestinians?

Obviously I could respond with photos of the many dead Palestinian women and children killed by Israel, the evidence of rape and torture etc. But I won't because swapping gruesome photos of the atrocities of the two sides (one claiming to be a democracy) doesn't prove anything. I was already aware of the horror of October 7th. But also that it is not the only horror carried out in this long long running conflict.

In your pp you only mention Israelis as the ones with disturbing and dehumanising views towards their neighbours.
Considering how numerous people in Gaza celebrated, seeing the broken bodies of Israelis being paraded around on October 7th (never mind the hundreds who joined the attacks themselves), what do you think their views on their neighbours are?
Regarding Israelis joining the IDF - what do you think would happen to Israel if it didn’t have a defence force?

I mentioned only Israelis because the OP asked specifically about Israelis and that is what I was responding to.

I don't use AI but I can if you like. If it's a "word salad", I'm sure AI can simplify it a bit.

Yes, but there is a difference between people having 'disturbing' views on their neighbours simply because they feel superior, and having those views because the neighbours hold similar attitudes toward them.