Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

The whole point of this thread is that if we live in a democracy with the freedom to challenge our leaders decisions, we have a responsibility to use it. When we disagree with a policy especially one that is horrific and contravenes the Geneva Conventions, protesting is not just a right, but a duty. If there are no protests against "Disengagement 710", passivity in a society that is certainly not averse to protesting amounts to tacit agreement. That is why they are morally culpable.

Without that flag their would be two states with the 1967 borders. An embassy in part of Jerusalem for the arabs on the land. All that was already agreed upon in 1967. Whoever a horrible little man prefer resistance fighting and to cause this eternal conflict because it was the best thing to keep Israel weaker for his Russian mates.

Who started the six day war again?

I believe strongly in the right to protest, even the rights of the people at the London Jew hate marches.

I believe much like King that people should passionately believe in making a better society and try to right wrongs when we see them. However I also understand that most people cannot protest or even have time to think about things to deeply the way life can be. That we shouldn't hold that against them. Also that anyone living in a war zone, which Israelis are even if not as affected as Gaza. There are missiles fired at them frequently etc plus most people do know at least one person that has been killed in the conflict or one of suicide attacks. Therefore do we really think they should be held culpable if they don't go out on protests. Sorry but I don't.

They were protesting a couple of weeks ago against Netanyahu and his government. Israelis are brilliant at protesting.

Bit of an odd question as what I was talking about the offer of 1967 borders. However I will humour you for now.

The events leading up to the six day war are important because tensions built up for weeks before the fighting began:

Troops from Israel and Syria clashed near the border.

The Soviet Union told Egypt that Israel planned to attack Syria.

Egypt moved troops into the Sinai Peninsula, removed United Nations peacekeepers, and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Egypt, Jordan, and Syria signed defense agreements

Israel felt surrounded and feared an imminent attack by the Arab coalition. To defend itself, the Israeli military launched Operation Focus, a massive air assault that destroyed most of the Egyptian air force on the ground within hours. This marked the official start of the war, which soon drew in Jordan and Syria.

There have been protests fairly often throughout the conflict about the Israel leaders and issuesthat affectthe average Israeli citizen. However what makes you feel like people should have the time or energy for a mass protest about something that doesn't affect them personally and for people that celebrate the bad and often horrific stuff that does affect them personally.

Yes I totally understand they should probably protest this policy. However do we really think many people in their substances would do that. I personally think the average person wouldn't. Well except for a few outliners like King who we should all try to emulate obviously.

Well - it’s the only flag the left wing find acceptable.
All other flags are a bit questionable

Okay, lets go with this. Nasser did order UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai but they were there from the 57 Suez Crisis. They did shut off the Tiran straights in order to bring Israel to the negotiating table but Israel chose a different route. Logically, think about it. If the other armies were preparing for a war with Israel, would the war have been over in 6 days. Would the entire Egyptian air force have been on the ground unfueled and undefended if they thought war was imminent. It was a land grab.

The less people know about history, the more likely that they think the most serious example of injustice is that perpetrated by Israelis in Gaza.

It’s as though they only read Iranian funded social media rather than history books.

True

That and being raised in various societies that hold anti Jewish biases. Therefore they don't spot their own prejudices.

Ah - so those Saturday marches I see every week are really all in support of Sudan . 🙄

And I know why the Republican Irish love to fly the Palestinian flag .

Shared history of being occupied by violent oppressers.

You'll have no problem providing the resources behind your rather larger claim then? You are an educator after all are you not, why so reluctant to share the source of your knowledge. It's not like educators to gate keep and instead go with 'trust me bro'.

You absolutely have minimised my experience as an Irish person who feels like they are routinely told what they can and cannot find bigoted. You've told me that that doesn't happen to me because antisemitism is the only form of racism where the victims are routinely lectured on what is and isn't bigoted by people who don't experience it. If you are using mumsnet as your source do a quick search of anti Irish and you will find thread after thread full of people minimising Irish people's experiences and telling them that they are wrong and to 'move on'.

The knowledge of hindsight is great. However imagine yourself in a position where you are getting reports of all these things happening at once. I don't think anyone involved including Israel really wanted a war at that time hence the quickness. It did bring about certain agreements that have lasted though. Therefore not a total disaster despite what it seems. However the UN interference that followed made an eternal conflict which won't end in our lifetime. Add to that the horrible little man not agreeing to the 1967 border deal the arabs in Gaza, Judea and Samaria got totally screwed over by outside influences before you even get to blaming Israel for anything they did.

People say that don't they

Never understood that argument

The history is amazing different in so many ways

Are you Irish or Palestinian?

That is you told then

I do like it when once in a while someone does post the wrong flag on line though

On what level do you even begin to imagine that Israel had any intention of ever giving up land to allow the Palestinians to have a home. Even the Oslo accords were the little man acknowledging Israel as a country but what did he get in return. A promise, nothing more, that Israel would work towards a two state solution. How has that worked out. Rabin paid the price for his betrayal by making nothing more than a false promise.

Talking about Martin Luther King then about Israel border earlier reminded me.

In a March 1968 speech during a march Dr. King stated, "Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist".

Also he noted that peace required secure borders for Israel while also acknowledging the economic challenges and poverty facing the broader Arab world.

Back to your post:

The accords allowed Arafat to return from exile to the Palestinian territories to head the newly established Palestinian National Authority, so very much in his personal interests. He only did things in the interest of himself and his Russian mates. Never in the interest of the people he represented. Very similar to so many leaders and politicians we see throughout history especially today in that sense.

Just like you I can't say what politicians in Israel planned to do or didn't plan to do at that time or over the years. Somethings I do blame the politicians for and somethings I find frustrating. However I don't think there has been since 1967 a great master plan or conspiracy. I believe there has been willing at times to sort this out. However it just isn't a straightforward thing to sort and sometimes politicians have got in the way yes. Not only Israeli or pal ones either. The UN and Europe are particularly good at keeping the conflict well fanned.

They both shared the same arms suppliers and criminal/ terrorist contacts / criminal quid pro quo etc

Currently they both seem rather keen on the Iraq keffiyeh too