Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

You think that all Republican Irish people had arms dealers and terrorist contacts? And all Palestinians? Thats a pretty anti Irish and anti Palestinian thing to say.

Eventually Israelis will need to come to terms with their actions. This will take a long time and be very very painful for them as they will need to put aside the collective lies they are living with.

The collective brain argument I see from last poster. Not original and rather tropie at the end.

Also this

The Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot 2:4), which states: "Do not judge your fellow man until you have arrived at his place."

🤐

In the meantime I have just been watching Iranian news channel. Meeting has happened in Germany ( think it was Germany they said) between most the countries Iran keeps attacking eg Israel, Saudi, Kuwait, UAE etc. They have been coming to an agreement about how to tackle the Iranian Regime issue. Also spoken about Abraham Accords. Saudi is definitely on board still for signing others getting closer. If that happens anything to do will relocation of Gazens etc would blow things up, therefore less likely. The Abraham Accords would bring peace to the borders of Israel and that means peace for everyone else too including the Gazens.

The Saudi, Turkey and Pakistan military or whatever it was called agreement was also mentioned. Apparently the other two ate not actually obliged yet to counter attack Iran for hitting Saudi. However it does mean too they cannot straightforward attack Israel whilst it is partnering with Saudi to sort out the Houthis (Saudi has recently asked Israel and mossad in particular for more help dealing with the Houthis). This all again means a greater tie between Israel and Saudi. Yet again that puts pressure on politicians to handle their Gaza policies more carefully, so win win hopefully.

That's not what she said at all!
These threads would be a fraction of the size if people actually read the posts rather than take umbrage at what they this was inferred.

Aside from when the world cup was on, I see the Palestinian flag more than any other.
You may consider it a 'bizarre claim', but it is true.

And I know why the Republican Irish love to fly the Palestinian flag .
They both shared the same arms suppliers and criminal/ terrorist contacts / criminal quid pro quo etc

What does this mean then? Who are 'they' if not Irish people who are republicans and Palestinians?

Republicans are pretty radical.
The vast majority of Irish people aren’t republicans.
Are you getting the term republican mixed up with nationalist maybe ?🤔
Republicans are considered the very hard-line or extreme nationalists, the ones that would use violence or did in the past. I’m not sure if you’re Irish too but that is how the term is understood by most Irish people in my experience.
I’m Irish and wouldn’t be at all insulted if people dissed republicans, would be happy to join in.

The OP, correct me if I'm wrong @Squeezingwildoranges, appears to have opened a discussion about collective responsibility. She is not seeking to target bereaved families in particular. No one is minimising anything. You are being melodramatic.
I notice that you didn't respond to the two examples I gave above showing that this is not an unusual situation. The Palestinians, who have suffered far, far more overall, are frequently blamed for the actions of Hamas.

The Republican political party in Ireland is Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein were the political wing of the IRA .
The IRA were/ are terrorists who had links with other terrorists including PLO in Palestine.
The murals in Belfast include sayings such as “IRA /PLO = one Struggle”

This link is also interesting ( and uses the term “republicans” which you objected to)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12539372

I wasn't referring to specific people Twigs. To deny that there has been racism against Germans because of the actions of their government/the government of many decades prior would be very dishonest.

I don’t blame Palestinians overall for the actions of Hamas.
That is why I’m in this thread - this suggestion that ALL Israelis ( including the many who suffered and are bereaved after 7/10) are morally culpable for Palestinians suffering is outrageous.

I’ll tell you who is morally culpable for the suffering of Palestinians :
Hamas
The Iranian government
Right wing Israeli settler movement
Netanyahu’s government

None of my replies has been quite as silly as the OP suggestion .

But …. What happened to Collective moral culpability?

There are some truly despicable posts on here. As you say, several posters have written clearly racist posts, @AnyfoolcanknowThepointistounderstand in particular. The fact that @SharonEllis, who says she has been involved in anti racism for 40 years, has said nothing is very worrying. Anyway, they've proven my point about collective blame of Palestinians immediately and also earlier points about how Islamophobia is tolerated while comments which only criticise Israel's actions are jumped on as being antisemitic.

This is such a misrepresentation of this thread it’s laughable.

Are you suggesting that the majority of Irish people did not voice their opposition to the IRA? Are you suggesting the Irish government supported the IRA? What point are you trying to make regarding collective moral culpability? Considering the British army and British goverments colluded with the loyalist paramilitary groups I think it is best not to derail the thread with this topic. You seem to shoehorn in a dig at the Irish at every opportunity.

Thanks for that. Fair enough if that is your opinion.

I don't agree with you though. As I said in earlier post, I think Israeli society shares responsibility, as does the wider community for not taking action, indeed for causing a lot of division and violence in the region over a very long time.
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that someone who stands by and does nothing while a crime is being committed eg a rape or a physical attack can also be charged as an accessory or similar. I'm not suggesting that Israelis are charged but just that the law does actually recognise this inaction, as described, as a crime.

Jewish people are across the world are currently facing a massive rise in violent antisemitic acts .
In my own city Jewish schools and synagogues have security guards. Anti semitic graffiti proliferates. There have been attacks even on Jewish ambulances ( orchestrated it turns out by Iran!) .
Are you suggesting that Irish people suffer in a similar way?

Antisemitic acts across the world have risen massively during this conflict. The notion of “collective moral culpability “ for all Israelis will feed antisemitism.

I was talking about Republicans - not “all Irish” . You’ve misrepresented my points .

No Doris the dental assistant and Muhammad the builder are culpable for all their politicians actions if they don't go out on the street and protest. Even though they are on an hourly rate of pay, have childcare and they personally know several people that have been injured in suicide attacks or rocket strikes.

Also Jews all over the world should have to face prejudice and attacks because nothing is more important than collective moral culpability that won't change anything in Gaza or stop the conflict.

I mean peoples arguments could not be more clear. No idea why you don't just roll over and accept their push for a more hateful world. How very unreasonable you are.

The ‘collective moral culpability’ comment wasn’t at all clear as the post you were responding to mentioned Republicans but also Irish people in general.

That’s pretty much sums up the OP position 👏

I actually agree with you on the risk. If a policy of forced displacement which is illegal under international law and a defined crime against humanity succeeds while the Israeli public passively stands by, it will unfortunately feed global antisemitism. Moral culpability isn't a label imposed by outsiders, it is an objective reality based on action or inaction. However, if the world sees significant opposition and massive protests from the Israeli population against these illegal state actions, it will do the exact opposite and actually help in the fight against antisemitism.