Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

@Ipsevenenabibas, "or had meaningful power to prevent the expulsion—and what did each person actually do?" That is the whole point of the question I asked. How much opposition would we expect now from any liberal democracies if there was an attempt to ethnically cleanse fifty percent of the indigenous population.

Of course some are offensive. That's my point really, you can't police what people think about you. People are going to think what they are going to think based on things like what they read in the media or they met one person of that nationality once or even what they've seen in a cartoon, most people won't have in depth knowledge of all aspects of every society. In those first moments when meeting an Israeli are some people going to recoil and think eurgh ethnic cleansing or are they going to think hey, I bet not all Israelis were ok with that I better not tar everyone with the same the brush?

This is how people work, no matter how palatable you may or not find it. Why do you think Israel is spending hundreds of millions on a social media reputation clean up? Because they know how people operate, they know that seeing snippets of good or bad things done by a country can change how people see the entire nation.

As an aside I am Irish and the 'backwards' came to me from a video I saw of an interview of British people where they were asked what they think of Irish people, it may be offensive, I may deny that it is true but it doesn't mean that some people don't think it.

I think you're changing the question slightly. If you're asking whether people in a liberal democracy would be expected to oppose their own government's attempt to expel half a population, that's one question. If you're asking whether other liberal democracies should intervene, oppose it diplomatically, or use force, that's a completely different question—and I don't accept that such intervention is automatically justified simply because the conduct is morally abhorrent.

States have obligations to their own citizens and aren't automatically entitled to interfere in another state's internal affairs. Military intervention in particular requires a much higher threshold than simply establishing that something is morally wrong.

And even domestically, I still wouldn't equate failure to oppose something with blanket culpability. Responsibility depends on what an individual knew, what power they possessed, whether they participated, and whether they had a realistic opportunity to affect the outcome.

So I don't think “How much opposition would we expect?” gets you to “all Israelis are culpable.” At most, it opens a separate debate about individual moral responsibility and the circumstances under which outside intervention is justified.

@Ipsevenenabibas, If you're asking whether other liberal democracies should intervene, oppose it diplomatically, or use force, that's a completely different question. I never asked that. I know it won't happen. My question is literally simply questioning whether Israeli society would allow what is an obvious crime against humanity to be committed by their democratically elected government. If they make no attempt to stop it, are they not all culpable?

Under what legal framework is a whole society culpable for the actions of its government? Your whole premise is a nonsense.

Would any other civilised country allow it to happen in this day and age.

Allow what?

The ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population who have had a permanent existence in the land for millennia.

No country has done that.

Firstly you do realise that Israelis includes indigenous arabs too? You know the very people you claim to be worried about. Often some of the real indigenous arabs at that. Also you think that Miriam the nurse or Abdule the security guard can do anything about the actions of powerful politicians?

Are you referring to Jews or Arabs?

Your original post is the definition of Anti-semitism and is so outrageously offensive to those of a sound mind.

Do you hold me accountable for the war in Iraq? I didn't protest our government's actions.
Do you hold all Palestinians accountable for their government's actions? If yes, that's just stupid, if not then why is it only applicable to Israelis/Zionists/Jews (take your pick)?

You still haven't answered the question. What's the legal framework and what follows from that, what is the penalty for this culpability?

Sadly when two sides have such fundamental differences in their beliefs but believe a certain plot of land is theirs, it’s never going to end well. Such hatred from both sides against the other that I can’t ever see a situation where peace will prevail. Such a sorry and sad situation for all the innocent people who just want to go about there day but they can’t.

But you're missing the point. The op doesn't believe the people on one side are innocent.

I'm so sad to wake up and see this thread still standing. Your posts reek of antisemitism OP.

So am I and I'm disappointed that Mumsnet allows it to stand.

Antisemitism hiding in plain sight on a UK parenting website.

Not even hiding.

Actually you're right ... not even hiding to those with their eyes open - although apparently MN mods don't see it (or don't care, I wonder which).

I know what you mean ... better in some ways that it remains standing as it does show the mindset of those holding all Israelis guilty for everything their government does or even might do in future.

It's a small step from that to blaming all Jews worldwide.

How is this being antisemitic. I am literally talking about Israeli government policy as publicly expressed by the following list of Ministers and members of the Knesset on numerous occasions. The few politicians that have expressed an opposition to the policy have done so only because it will have a negative impact on Israel's global reputation. Ben Gvir has announced it as an official policy and his Otzma Yehudit is using it as a platform for re-election. Now you can call me old fashioned but I find the idea of ethnic cleansing wrong and should be held accountable. I also expect the Israeli general public to express their opposition to their government trying to commit a crime against humanity. What exactly is wrong with that?

Benjamin Netanyahu
Itamar Ben-Gvir
Bezalel Smotrich
Israel Katz
Shlomo Karhi
Gila Gamliel
Danny Danon
Ram Ben-Barak
Nissim Vaturi
Idit Silman
Avigdor Liberman
Limor Sonn Har-Melech
Almog Cohen

That is not what you are doing. You are arguing that a whole society is 'culpable' but being very coy about what that means. As you know Collective punishment is illegal and the demonising of a whole people has real world consequences. Spare us the faux ignorance.

Your singling out of Israel is also antisemitic.

@Squeezingwildoranges do you hold Palestinians collectively responsible for what Hamas do or might do in future?

Iranians for the IRGC?

Americans for Trump?

Russians for Putin?